Red & Black cable....can you still use it?

hammerswinger · 22 May 2014

Hi,

I've been reading the older topics on this subject but can't find a definite answer.

I'm about to start to run the wires for my house extension and I have a few drums of the old colour cable (2.5mm T&E, 1.0mm T&E, 3 core & Earth strapping wire) and I would like to know if it is ok to use it?

Now I know some will say just buy new cable but it seems silly not to use the stuff I have if it can be used, so I'm not seeking opinions here, I'm after the rules & regs about using old colour cable and whether I can use the cable I have.

If I were to sleeve the ends of the wires with the appropriate colour does that make it acceptable?

If it makes any difference all the other cables in the house are Red & Black.

Thanks for any advice.

plugwash · 22 May 2014

The reason you can't find a definite answer is because there isn't really one.

Using red/black to identify live and neutral in new wiring is no longer compliant with BS7671 (aka the wiring regs). BS7671 is not and has never been law. The law is pretty vauge and certainly doesn't mention wiring colour codes directly.

However many electricians may feel pressured into following BS7671 by their certification schemes and many building inspectors may be very reluctant to accept an installation that doesn't follow BS7671.

I would want to speak to whoever was going to be inspecting and signing off this work before starting.

If I were to sleeve the ends of the wires with the appropriate colour does that make it acceptable?

Yes, sleeving conductors to identify them is acceptable.

If it makes any difference all the other cables in the house are Red & Black.

It doesn't make a difference as far as BS7671 is concerned.

It makes a difference in the sense that it could be argued that an installation with mixed color codes is less safe than one with a consistent color code. So if you are trying to argue that what you have done makes "reasonable provision for safety" on the grounds that your work is at least as safe as BS7671 compliant work you would have an easier time arguing that if you already have red/black in the installation.

PrenticeBoyofDerry · 22 May 2014

I don't believe BS7671 explicitly states it cannot be used, but you would have to remark upon it on the installation documents and a warning notice at the board stating the core colour versions, I assume a new board with blue/brown internal cores, so a two colour version sticker should do.
I would also suggest you test the reels out prior to installing, to make sure it is in good nick.

JohnW2 · 22 May 2014

PrenticeBoyofDerry said:
I don't believe BS7671 explicitly states it cannot be used, but you would have to remark upon it on the installation documents and a warning notice at the board stating the core colour versions, I assume a new board with blue/brown internal cores, so a two colour version sticker should do.

I don't quite understand why you are assuming that. AFAICS, we've been told nothing about a new board, but we have been told that "all the other cables in the house are red/black". If that is true, a 'warning notice' would presumably only be needed if the OP did not use red/black cable for the new wiring, wouldn't it?

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 · 22 May 2014

plugwash said:
The reason you can't find a definite answer is because there isn't really one.

Quite so.

plugwash said:
Using red/black to identify live and neutral in new wiring is no longer compliant with BS7671 (aka the wiring regs). BS7671 is not and has never been law. The law is pretty vauge and certainly doesn't mention wiring colour codes directly. ... However many electricians may feel pressured into following BS7671 by their certification schemes and many building inspectors may be very reluctant to accept an installation that doesn't follow BS7671.

True, but as you go on to say, even BS7671 accepts that identification of conductors by over-sleeving at terminations is acceptable - so it presumably would be fully BS7671-compliant to use red/black cable and over-sleeve it at terminations with brown/blue, daft though it would be to do that!!

plugwash said:
It makes a difference in the sense that it could be argued that an installation with mixed color codes is less safe than one with a consistent color code. So if you are trying to argue that what you have done makes "reasonable provision for safety" on the grounds that your work is at least as safe as BS7671 compliant work you would have an easier time arguing that if you already have red/black in the installation.

I agree. Common sense sense surely indicates that, if all the other wiring in the house is red/black, then it is, if anything, 'safer' (hence more compliant with Part P) to use red/black (without over-sleeving) for the new wiring than it would be to use brown/blue (or even red/black with brown/blue over-sleeving). Indeed, BS7671 partially acknowledges this view, in that it would require 'warning labels' if brown/blue (cable or over-sleeving) were used for the new wiring, but not if the new wiring was red/black.

However, as you've said, in the final analysis the only opinion which really counts is that of the person who will be doing certifying and/or inspecting! One would hope that common sense might prevail, but who knows!

Kind Regards, John

EFLImpudence · 22 May 2014

JohnW2 said:
a 'warning notice' would presumably only be needed if the OP did not use red/black cable for the new wiring, wouldn't it?

And/or if he sleeved them brown or blue.

Now, that would be silly.

I am not by my book to see the exact wording, but does it not say that conductors must be identified; not that they must be a certain colour to start with? (except G/Y)
Bas often espoused the use of red and black if that's what you already had so it must be ok.

westie101 · 22 May 2014

Just put the red/black in and claim it was installed before the new cable colours came into use, thus getting round any need to comply with the idiocy that is part P

(and the "must be by the book attitudes")

JohnW2 · 22 May 2014

EFLImpudence said:
JohnW2 said:

a 'warning notice' would presumably only be needed if the OP did not use red/black cable for the new wiring, wouldn't it?

Click to expand...

And/or if he sleeved them brown or blue. Now, that would be silly.

Typing too slowly again

EFLImpudence said:
I am not by my book to see the exact wording, but does it not say that conductors must be identified; not that they must be a certain colour to start with? (except G/Y)

Exactly. The regs talk only about identification of conductors, and acknowledge that over-sleeving is an acceptable method of identifation. Hence, as we've both said, red/black over-sleeved with brown/blue for new wiring would seemingly be fully compliant (but would require a warning label if the rest of the house's wiring was red/black!) - but, as we've also both said, that would be a plain daft thing to do, solely for the sake of 'satisfying the regs'!

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 · 22 May 2014

westie101 said:
Just put the red/black in and claim it was installed before the new cable colours came into use, thus getting round any need to comply with the idiocy that is part P ... (and the "must be by the book attitudes")

I fully sympathise with your sentiments, but if this is wiring being installed in a new extension being built in 2014 (or maybe 2013), the argument might be difficult to sustain in this case

Kind Regards, John

mattylad · 22 May 2014

\me grabs some popcorn and pulls up a chair for whats is to be expected here.

westie101 · 22 May 2014

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?....167046943322129.44202.167041539989336&type=1

PrenticeBoyofDerry · 22 May 2014

JohnW2 said:
I don't quite understand why you are assuming that. AFAICS, we've been told nothing about a new board, but we have been told that "all the other cables in the house are red/black". If that is true, a 'warning notice' would presumably only be needed if the OP did not use red/black cable for the new wiring, wouldn't it?

I assume like I said in my post assume, If the extension is to comply to 17th editions, so socket outlets, buried cable., then it is possible that the board is designed with RCD protection which possibly would have internal conductors of blue/brown, so that would then require two versions of BS7671 colour notice.
What is so difficult about you understanding that?
I am quickly starting to dislike you, I did say it was an assumption, you are assuming otherwise, so why do you seem to think you have the right to question my assumption?
I was offering what I consider good advise if the case is that a newish unit is in place.

hammerswinger · 22 May 2014

Wow....Thanks for all the detailed reply's.

The extension is under building control so unfortunately I can't get away with saying the wiring was done prior to the new colours

I think I had better have a word with the BCO and the Spark that will be doing / signing off the work, because if they're not happy it's pointless going any further with the exercise.

The rolls of cable are still brand new and in perfect condition (I've checked)

I see the point of it being a bit silly to sleeve the Red & Black to Brown & Blue when the rest of the circuits in the House have Red & Black but if that has to be done to make it comply so be it.

Actually I'm wrong.....there is one circuit that has Brown & Blue cable (Solar PV)

The consumer unit is a Crabtree Starbreaker split load (5 RCD and 5 None RCD) and it has a mixed colour warning sticker fitted.

Cheers.

PrenticeBoyofDerry · 22 May 2014

hammerswinger said:
The consumer unit is a Crabtree Starbreaker split load (5 RCD and 5 No RCD) and it has a mixed colour warning sticker fitted.

I would think you would be fine then, but worth having those conversations with building controls, always good to keep on the right side of them

JohnW2 · 22 May 2014

PrenticeBoyofDerry said:
I am quickly starting to dislike you, I did say it was an assumption, you are assuming otherwise, so why do you seem to think you have the right to question my assumption?

Hey, there's no need to get excited! I did not 'assume otherwise', but merely stated what we'd actually been told. Nor did I 'question your assumption' - I merely said that I "didn't quite understand" your assumption (which I didn't, even though I probably should have done!) - but you've now explained, so I do now understand - and, furthermore, the OP has confirmed that your assumption is correct, so I would hope that you are happy!

Kind Regards, John

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Red & Black cable....can you still use it?

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