attaching speaker cable to UPVC architrave

westie101 · 19 Jul 2014

and for their sakes it would be nice if the number of such anomalies 'in the book' could be minimised.

Or they upskill to enable them to make better decisions which, as I understand it, was part of the intent.
What has happened is produce a generation (?) of read the book, then the book about the book, then the book about the book about the book folk who call themselves electricians who have little back to basics knowledge and often have only ever gone to college!

westie101 · 19 Jul 2014

I'll tell you one thing for sure, in the event of a tragedy; standing in front of a coroner and saying "well I did it by the book" will get absolutely no sympathy and will raise questions about supposed professionals ability to work it out in terms of basic principles!

OwainDIYer · 19 Jul 2014

westie101 said:
I'll tell you one thing for sure, in the event of a tragedy; standing in front of a coroner and saying "well I did it by the book" will get absolutely no sympathy and will raise questions about supposed professionals ability to work it out in terms of basic principles!

On the other hand saying "I thought I knew better than the book and so did it differently" might not go down too well either.

Depends on the coroner / judge I suppose.

westie101 · 19 Jul 2014

"I thought I knew better than the book

Anyone that did that would be equally a fool, someone properly trained and qualified would be able to show, as required by Part P, why their design was safe or safer.

JohnW2 · 20 Jul 2014

westie101 said:
and for their sakes it would be nice if the number of such anomalies 'in the book' could be minimised.

Click to expand...

Or they upskill to enable them to make better decisions which, as I understand it, was part of the intent.

I can't speak for their intent but, as I said, much as I agree with its desirability, such 'upskilling' would be of no help to those who are forced (or feel forced) by their employers, Scheme operators or insurers to work to the letter of BS7671, 'for better or for worse'.

westie101 said:
[What has happened is produce a generation (?) of read the book, then the book about the book, then the book about the book about the book folk who call themselves electricians who have little back to basics knowledge and often have only ever gone to college!

You know that I largely agree with all of that - but it doesn't alter what I say above.

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 · 20 Jul 2014

westie101 said:
I'll tell you one thing for sure, in the event of a tragedy; standing in front of a coroner and saying "well I did it by the book" will get absolutely no sympathy and will raise questions about supposed professionals ability to work it out in terms of basic principles!

I don't think that's in any way 'for sure', given the alternatives. Courts, including coroners courts, are dependent on expert opinions, and judge the merit of those opinions as best they can on the basis of the apparent 'pedigree' of the source. Given the long list of highly qualified individuals involved in the preparation of BS7671, and the respect which is held for the BSI and IET as organisations, the person who stood up in a court and argued that (s)he failed to comply with what the book required because, in their personal 'expert' judgement, some alternative was better would have to have an extremely convincing argument, and ideally a good few letters after their name, if they were to be taken seriously by the court.

Kind Regards, John

ban-all-sheds · 20 Jul 2014

westie101 said:
someone properly trained and qualified would be able to show, as required by Part P, why their design was safe or safer.

Indeed.

But they could not possibly begin to do that unless they were fully conversant with what BS 7671 says.

donmaico · 21 Jul 2014

ban-all-sheds said:
donmaico said:

i want to run pair of speaker cable either side of some patio doors and then onto a solid wall and was wondering how best to do that

Click to expand...

When you say "speaker cable", do you mean something like bell wire or something like Choseal LB 5111?

rather thicker than bell wire but nowhere near as thick as Choseal .Its available from Wickes http://www.wickes.co.uk/Speaker-Flex-13-0-2-mm2-x-7-5m/p/710455

donmaico · 22 Jul 2014

sparkwright said:
Yes, self adhesive trunking can often come unstuck. The only time I use is is on surfaces I don't want damaged, such as uPVC in conservatories or marble columns etc.

If you don't want to penetrate (oo er) the surface, all you can do is try the self adhesive stuff. Sometimes a random fixing here and there will help if you don't mind damaging the surface.

All in all, any type of electrical accessory stuck to a surface is a bit of a bodge. It's ok till all comes unstuck...

I dont mind that odd bit of surface damage but wondered what to use .Would small nails do the job?

RF Lighting · 22 Jul 2014

Cable staple gun?

donmaico · 22 Jul 2014

RF Lighting said:
Cable staple gun?

yes thats a good idea .When i said nails i meant those cable clips, but a staple gun probably makes more sense

ban-all-sheds · 22 Jul 2014

donmaico said:
rather thicker than bell wire but nowhere near as thick as Choseal .Its available from Wickes http://www.wickes.co.uk/Speaker-Flex-13-0-2-mm2-x-7-5m/p/710455[/QUOTE]
As far as the doorframe goes I think I'd be tempted to conceal that under a bead of white silicone.

Assuming I couldn't manage to get a proper job done of not having it on the surface anywhere.

ban-all-sheds · 22 Jul 2014

JohnW2 said:
I've never actually thought of this before, but your comment makes me wonder how daft the regs actually are. Do they actually somewhere explicitly say (or even imply) that all the requirements in relation to buried/concealed cables (RCD/mechanical protection, safe zones etc.) does not apply to 'ELV'/signal/audio/RF/whatever cables???

Yes.

JohnW2 said:
AFAICS, in terms of the way the regs are written, if a buried/concealed ELV cable is not RCD protected (for any reason, including situations in which it would be impossible/ridiculous), then there is a requirement for mechanical protection or special cable (SWA, ali-tube etc.) - which, IMO, is clearly plain daft! Maybe I'm missing something 'sensible' about this in the regs?

You are. 415.1.1.

JohnW2 said:
ban-all-sheds said:

JohnW2 said:

which, IMO, is clearly plain daft! Maybe I'm missing something 'sensible' about this in the regs?

Click to expand...

Yes and no.

Click to expand...

Some amplification regarding the 'yes' would be appreciated.
Edit: Ah, did you mean 'Yes and no, respectively' (i.e. agreeing with me on both counts), rather than the 'partially yes, partially no' which I initially interpreted your words to be saying?

My bad - I should have said "Yes and yes".

It's clearly daft to require RCD protection for speaker/data/etc cables, but if you actually read what it says (which I hadn't until just now, hence my mistake

) it refers to RCDs having the characteristics specified in 415.1.1

So:

Q: Do RCDs with the characteristics specified in 415.1.1 exist for speaker/data/ELV/etc circuits?

A: No.

Q: Do the regulations therefore require the use of RCDs to protect speaker/data/etc cables?

A: No.

JohnW2 · 22 Jul 2014

ban-all-sheds said:
JohnW2 said:

Maybe I'm missing something 'sensible' about this in the regs?

Click to expand...

You are. 415.1.1. .....
My bad - I should have said "Yes and yes". It's clearly daft to require RCD protection for speaker/data/etc cables, but if you actually read what it says (which I hadn't until just now, hence my mistake ) it refers to RCDs having the characteristics specified in 415.1.1

What "it" refers to RCDs "having the characteristics specified in 415.1.1"?

ban-all-sheds said:
So:
Q: Do RCDs with the characteristics specified in 415.1.1 exist for speaker/data/ELV/etc circuits? ... A: No.

I'm not sure that I understand. 415.1.1 doesn't say anything about what the RCD is 'for' - the only 'characteristics' mentioned appear to be the IΔn and trip time at 5*IΔn, characteristics which would be true of any 30mA RCD one could have, regardless of how daft/inappropriate might be the circuit in which one installed it.

Kind Regards, John

westie101 · 22 Jul 2014

A few points

1/ most amplifiers include circuitry to protect the output stage in the even of a fault occurring e.g. a short circuit on the speaker leads

2/ It is rare for an amplifier output to be referenced to earth so the chance of detecting inbalance owing to contact is nil.

3/ voltage is such that there is zero risk of any hazard to life or limb, except in a 100V line system, even there insufficient current is available.

4/

diynot

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attaching speaker cable to UPVC architrave

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