MH17

If, as has been suggested an SA-11 missile downed MH-17 then it is unlikely to be a case of mistaken identity as the buk missile launcher used for the deployment of the SA-11 has an IFF (identify friend or foe) to determine the type of aircraft.

It will be nigh on impossible to prove it was not a mistake, it will be difficult enough to prove who did what. It is also extremely unlikely (and again unprovable) that it was a deliberate attack knowing it was a civillian plane (which side has anything to gain by this).

So again, it is a plane flying over a warzone, it get's shot down.

What's the point of an investigation, what usefull result will it give us.
 
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If, as has been suggested an SA-11 missile downed MH-17 then it is unlikely to be a case of mistaken identity as the buk missile launcher used for the deployment of the SA-11 has an IFF (identify friend or foe) to determine the type of aircraft.

It will be nigh on impossible to prove it was not a mistake, it will be difficult enough to prove who did what. It is also extremely unlikely (and again unprovable) that it was a deliberate attack knowing it was a civillian plane (which side has anything to gain by this).

So again, it is a plane flying over a warzone, it get's shot down.

What's the point of an investigation, what usefull result will it give us.


So you think "we" should just forget about it and turn a blind eye?
 
The Americans have always been known to be trigger-happy.

Shoot first, ask questions later.
But not allow questions to be asked of them...

Just like their Israeli allies ;)
 
So you think "we" should just forget about it and turn a blind eye?

I think we should learn an expensive lesson and avoid flying over war zones, even if it costs a bit more in fuel to avoid them.

You know it makes sense.
 
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So you think "we" should just forget about it and turn a blind eye?

I think we should learn an expensive lesson and avoid flying over war zones, even if it costs a bit more in fuel to avoid them.

You know it makes sense.

I am sure their families don't think so, and also in a serious breach of the geneva conventions, which both the russian federation and the ukraine have ratified regarding the protection of non combatants / civilians both in and around a war zone.
 
A passenger jet was shot down killing everyone on board. 298 innocent souls with families just like you and me. Someone needs to investigate it

Why?

Plane flies over a warzone, get's shot down, probably mistaken for a military plane (which have been flying about).

What will an investigation tell us that we don't already know?

If, as has been suggested an SA-11 missile downed MH-17 then it is unlikely to be a case of mistaken identity as the buk missile launcher used for the deployment of the SA-11 has an IFF (identify friend or foe) to determine the type of aircraft.

IFF - 'Identification Friend or Foe' will only confirm known friendlies. Known friendlies will set up a code on the IFF which is detected by the ground radar and recognised as such. Under normal Rules of Engagement (ROE), any other code detected requires further investigation to confirm it is a threat before shooting it down.

It appears on this occasion that if IFF was used, they realised it wasn't 'one of their own' and decided to shoot it down without confirming what it was.
 
So you think "we" should just forget about it and turn a blind eye?

I think we should learn an expensive lesson and avoid flying over war zones, even if it costs a bit more in fuel to avoid them.

You know it makes sense.

I am sure their families don't think so, and also in a serious breach of the geneva conventions, which both the russian federation and the ukraine have ratified regarding the protection of non combatants / civilians both in and around a war zone.

Of course, I agree with what you say. But if (assuming an investigation can prove one way or another) it was shot down in error there's nothing much that can be done about it now.
 
So you think "we" should just forget about it and turn a blind eye?

I think we should learn an expensive lesson and avoid flying over war zones, even if it costs a bit more in fuel to avoid them.

You know it makes sense.

I am sure their families don't think so, and also in a serious breach of the geneva conventions, which both the russian federation and the ukraine have ratified regarding the protection of non combatants / civilians both in and around a war zone.

Of course, I agree with what you say. But if (assuming an investigation can prove one way or another) it was shot down in error there's nothing much that can be done about it now.

'Blue on Blue' is a regular hazard in war zones, even when ROE's are in place. So I cannot understand why commercial airlines take the risk to over fly them, just for the sake of cost savings.
 
'Blue on Blue' is a regular hazard in war zones, even when ROE's are in place. So I cannot understand why commercial airlines take the risk to over fly them, just for the sake of cost savings.

Ignorance of the risk, in this case: The rebels weren't believed to have proper ground to air weaponry and certainly no aircraft.
 
Especially those where the protagonists have Soviet missiles!
Or American ones ;)

Their calls for 'justice' are a bit laughable after they rewarded the captain and crew of the Vincennes who shot down the Iranian airbus...

And they never admitted liability or apologised!

There were no calls for a UN/International investigation either...

Funny that :rolleyes:

I'm talking about this statement.
That's the aftermath... :rolleyes:

The dutch have opened a war crime investigation for MH17

Did that happen with Iran Air flight 655? - A civilian aircraft shot down over its own airspace!

'Justice' is not universal, but dependant on the perpetrators - a simple point you seem to have missed!
The most likely scenario is that the plane was shot down by mistake, there is no tactical advantage for either side in shooting down a civilian aircraft and in propaganda terms it is a disaster.
This means it is a tragic case of collateral damage therefore not a war crime as such, if killing innocent civilians with missiles is a war crime then half the countries in the World should be in the dock at the top of the list Would be America,the UK and Israel.
The real culprits in this tragedy are the politicians who agitate for war, they don't really care who gets killed, already they are exploiting the disaster by claiming that Putin is responsible and Russia are to "blame".
 
Any incident which deliberately targets an aircraft and shoots it down without first identifying it as foe ......is not a mistake.
 
there is no tactical advantage for either side in shooting down a civilian aircraft and in propaganda terms it is a disaster.
If the side that shot it down can convince the world that they didn't and also that their enemy shot the plane down then the propaganda value is high.
 
Any incident which deliberately targets an aircraft and shoots it down without first identifying it as foe ......is not a mistake.

Idealistic nonsense.

Passenger jets have been used for reconnaissance in past wars, they also can "look" the same as military planes.

It's a war-zone, stay out, that's all there is to it.
 
Any incident which deliberately targets an aircraft and shoots it down without first identifying it as foe ......is not a mistake.

Idealistic nonsense.

Passenger jets have been used for reconnaissance in past wars, they also can "look" the same as military planes.

It's a war-zone, stay out, that's all there is to it.

So you agree they deliberately shot it down then.
 
Any incident which deliberately targets an aircraft and shoots it down without first identifying it as foe ......is not a mistake.

Idealistic nonsense.

Passenger jets have been used for reconnaissance in past wars, they also can "look" the same as military planes.

It's a war-zone, stay out, that's all there is to it.

So you agree they deliberately shot it down then.

No you moron, they slipped on a banana and fell on the fire button :rolleyes:
 
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