3phase problem

flyingsparks · 17 Feb 2015

I Agree with Steve regarding these old machines are ten times better than the modern equivalent. Good strong heavy cast materials much better than flimsy sheet steel. My dad has a pillar drill with 3 separate motors on and three separate chucks. This was originally my grandfathers when he started the family business in 1950. I have now installed DC injection braking on it to make it a bit safer now to meet today's standards.

333rocky333 · 17 Feb 2015

Did he check the oil in the 3 dashpots on the starter, it may simply be there short of oil, though a new starter wont do no harm, just ensure the overloads you buy are matched to the moter

Looks like an MEM starter I used to top up the dashpots in the late 70s

Lectrician or spark 123 may be able to help you fault find them

stevethejoiner · 17 Feb 2015

333rocky333 said:
Did he check the oil in the 3 dashpots on the starter, it may simply be there short of oil, though a new starter wont do no harm, just ensure the overloads you buy are matched to the moter

Looks like an MEM starter I used to top up the dashpots in the late 70s

Lectrician or spark 123 may be able to help you fault find them

My electrician today said the dash pots could be low on oil. He didn't check them, as he too recommended a new starter.

Tonight the supplier has offered to send a starter. But refuses to pay the Electrition the £150 he quoted to fit it. Saying he would rather I return it for them to fit, and then send it back to me. I hate to think what the supplier think if I said I wanted the £40 back that I gave the electrition today for coming out to fault find and test it.
But on the starter issue. It's a shame to spoil it with a retrospectively fitted plastic or cheep metal box slapped on the side.

But if it must, it must.

flyingsparks · 17 Feb 2015

333rocky333 said:
Did he check the oil in the 3 dashpots on the starter, it may simply be there short of oil, though a new starter wont do no harm, just ensure the overloads you buy are matched to the moter

Looks like an MEM starter I used to top up the dashpots in the late 70s

Lectrician or spark 123 may be able to help you fault find them

Ok, I will hold my hands up to this one, I have seen starters like this before, but never heard of 'dash pots'..'could someone give me more info please!?

333rocky333 · 17 Feb 2015

Yeah i agree a retro starter would look more at home, I cannot remember how you do the dashpots, i seem to recall you count the clicks and get them all level, and set to the relevant Amps on the middle ones scale, looks like yours are at max, but if the oils low, then they will trip, as they need to absorb the start current , i recall its easy to top them up as i was only an apprentice,

It sounds like the electrician held the starter in manually and let it run, for 40 quid he should have checked the oil though, im wondering if he was a bit out his depth with old starters.
I would be tempted to give it a go with new oil, not sure if carburreter oil might be suitable, best check on the internet first, if it works, then keep the new starter for future use

333rocky333 · 17 Feb 2015

From memory the dashpots, the big screw on bits at the bottom of each phase, work like columbus air switches but with oil rather than air, when the overload mechanism tries to trip, it is prevented by the pressure of the oil forced through a hole, loosening and tightening them adjusts the pressure delaying the trip, like the screw on the back of the air switches made by columbus
No oil would not delay tripping hence the motor runs a few secs, mechanism operates and motor shuts down.
If you was carefull and AVOID touching the live parts you would see this with the cover off
but you must ENSURE not to touch anything LIVE especially on the 3 phase ones

ban-all-sheds · 18 Feb 2015

And be careful of the old mineral oil, if there is any, in the dashpots - it's carcinogenic.

ericmark · 18 Feb 2015

I also missed noting it had dash pots and I should have known better. And of course if just short of oil the supplier is likely correct there may have been nothing wrong with it just short of oil.

I know I had problems getting FRF for transformers and dash pots and as you have already said you should not get it on ones skin. I would guess Helimen oil would do the job.

I remember a narrow gauge railway being given some oil from a power station the steam trains had been converted to burn oil. Turned out to be FRF (fire resistance fluid) which would not burn and cost them a fortune to depose of it.

I am sure 3 in 1 would do the job and the thicker the oil the longer the delay so with old starters I have used a 40 grade as holes were slightly too big with age.

I agree the old machines were sturdy and worked well but still needs modern guards.

The point with green and yellow cable is it states "single core" so with multi-core cables it does not prohibit over sleeving. (514.4.2) As to if cable shown is single or multi core we can't see but what is quite easy to see is there is no over sleeving so without question it does not comply with regulations.

As a result one has to question the rest of the work.

stevethejoiner · 18 Feb 2015

ban-all-sheds said:
And be careful of the old mineral oil, if there is any, in the dashpots - it's carcinogenic.

I will do that before I send the machine back. Thanks .

westie101 · 18 Feb 2015

And be careful of the old mineral oil, if there is any, in the dashpots - it's carcinogenic.

Is it really? I think you had better contact my employer as we handle as a company over 1 million litres of it a yesr and certainly don't class that as an issue or risk.

Unless you are referring to any possible contamination of oil by PCBs which certainly does not affect most of that in circulation

JohnW2 · 18 Feb 2015

westie101 said:
And be careful of the old mineral oil, if there is any, in the dashpots - it's carcinogenic.

Click to expand...

Is it really? I think you had better contact my employer as we handle as a company over 1 million litres of it a yesr and certainly don't class that as an issue or risk.

I don't think it is/was all mineral oils, and suspect that the worst culprits are no longer used. In any event, AFAIAA, the problem was only ever in relation to chronic (long-term) exposure - many many moons ago there were problems in people who spent years or decades wearing oil-soaked overalls, some of whom developed skin (and other) cancers - but, again AFAIAA, I don't think there has ever been a suggestion that occasional brief contact was a problem.

Kind Regards, John

westie101 · 18 Feb 2015

Biggest problem with insulating oil is that no matter what you do, oil flavoured butties at lunch time are the norm!!

Our big 40,000 litre capacity tankers don't even carry Haz Chem signage as it is not required

JohnW2 · 18 Feb 2015

westie101 said:
Biggest problem with insulating oil is that no matter what you do, oil flavoured butties at lunch time are the norm!! Our big 40,000 litre capacity tankers don't even carry Haz Chem signage as it is not required

Having had a quick look around, it seems that all the problems were associated with PCBs - which, at least n theory have not been used (although some obviously may persist) since the 70s.

Kind Regards, John

ban-all-sheds · 18 Feb 2015

JohnW2 said:
I don't think it is/was all mineral oils, and suspect that the worst culprits are no longer used.

I did say "old oil" - pretty sure that some used to contain PCBs.

Perhaps I should have said "might be carcinogenic".

In any event, AFAIAA, the problem was only ever in relation to chronic (long-term) exposure

True - it's not quite another blue asbestos...

JohnW2 · 18 Feb 2015

ban-all-sheds said:
JohnW2 said:

I don't think it is/was all mineral oils, and suspect that the worst culprits are no longer used.

Click to expand...

I did say "old oil" - pretty sure that some used to contain PCBs.

Indeed, I think that virtually all of them did contain PCBs, and that was the problem, but stopped being present in 'new oil' after the 70s.

ban-all-sheds said:
In any event, AFAIAA, the problem was only ever in relation to chronic (long-term) exposure

Click to expand...

True - it's not quite another blue asbestos...

Indeed. On the contrary, I think it took a lot of exposure, over a longer period of time, to do harm - and even that only if one were 'unlucky'. Even with asbestos, it takes chronic exposure (of bodily tissues), usually for many years, to do harm - but once asbestos fibres have got into your lungs, they are there 'for life' - so just a very brief period of exposure to airborne fibres actually ends up with your lungs being exposed very long-term.

Kind Regards, John

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3phase problem

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