Major problem with stop cock on mains supply - help needed

I need a bit of help. I live in a property built in 1936 which is currently in need of changes to CH/HW system. I have condensing boiler ready in a box, I'm fairly proficient with soldering copper pipes, would like to do CH pipes myself and let CORGI registered plumber do the gas bit. However there is one major problem with doing anything plumbing related since we moved in 2 years ago - a lack of working stop cock. The stop cock on main suppoly inside the house doesn't fuction at all and to make matters worse there is no separate valve for each of the houses outside properties and the only way to close water supply for any works from the outside is to get water board to turn off water for two streets (about 30 houses) and get them to pump the water out of the system. They usually need all neighbours to agree to it as well, unless it's documented emergency or repairs can be done at night. As you can imagine this is completely unacceptable and I need to get my own mains stop cock working as soon as possible or one day I will have major disaster. And here are the problems:
- Existing stop cock is very old, I don't know exactly what's wrong with it, except suspition that it was possibly forced at some point in the past, probably hammered. Turning it all the way in doesn't stop water and there is small ammount of water dribbling from it. That slight leakage stops when stop cock is fully open
- Mains pipe coming in to the house is made of thick metal, not copper
- The amount of space around the pipe is very, very limited (see the picture)

I don't quite know what to do with it, don't have money for major overhaul, especially that with all the issues with switching off water supply and pumping out of water from the system the plumber would have to be available at night and be able to do everything in one go, that would be extremely pricey. What can be done?
Pipe freezing spray? Does it work, can it be trusted for mains supply?
Cut the metal pipe and try push fit or something similar?
Any suggestions, any help would be really appreciated.

I have used gas a few times to freeze pipework very successfully and I now have a electric freezer (which is the Dogs Cahooners) why go to that expense of buying a arctic freeze kit for 1 job? I am sure most reputable hire shops hire out the freezing machines now for about £40/day, these give you an unlimited amount of time to do the job properly and safetly without having to worry about that dreaded "Pop" as the ice plug lets go (remember that running water will not freeze).
If you do go down the hire route then the 3 most important things to remember are....
1.. Scrape away any paint on the pipe where the freeze head is to be attached.
2.. Smear hand cream between the bare pipework and the freeze head as this gives a great spread of the cold temperature.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY DON'T FORGET NUMBER 3.
3.. Remember to switch the machine on before you cut the rising main.
Good Luck
Stuart

I cannot see how you will have enough access to put a freezing jacket around the pipe let alone be able to cut through the pipe work there.

If, as you say, the weeping stops when the stop tap is fully open is there not a run of accessible pipe where you can freeze it and install a new stop tap?

The single shot freezing kits will work perfectly OK, subject to the proviso that any ice plug can fail regardless of the method used to create it. It would be common sense to have immediately to hand a method of rapidly shutting off the flow in the event of failure. In your case I would have a 15mm John Guest isolating valve ready to use. And maybe a JG stop-end, just in case.

If the ice plug does fail then try and keep calm but work quickly and positively. Have the isolating valve in the open position before you start the job and simply push it over the newly cut pipe. Close the valve and you now have all the time in the world to install your new stop tap. You will find it very difficult to insert a closed fitting over a gushing pipe so do remember to open it first.

Total cost of doing the job yourself should not be more than twenty quid. I am assuming that you have a decent pipe slice and do not intend to fanny around with a hacksaw - you need to ensure that you can cut through quickly and cleanly.

Best of luck with that

Pipe slice for iron pipe,

A water Company that wants to pump the mains out

Anymore little gems.

Sorry to cut the pipe is a hacksaw or grinder job.
Water Company may shut the supply off in an emmergency, they will not pump the main out though, unless you contaiminate it, and in any case your'e talking thousands.

What they/your plumber should do is fit an stopcock outside
Yep Outside in the ground.

Dig hole and expose pipe.
Follow pipe to nearest joint.
Cut pipe with hacksaw or angle grinder if you have an air machine. (do not use an electric one)
Wait for water to cover pipe ( this stops you getting wet if the pipe is under water.
Remove pipe from fitting with stillsons.
Fit new stopvalve (turn on so it doesn't splash.
Shut stopvalve.
Re connect old pipe, either by renewing to the next joint or with an universal coupling.

Result = one outside stopvalve for future use.
One hours labour.

doitall said:

A water Company that wants to pump the mains out

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Had a guy from Southern Water running around the house looking for external stop cock few months ago. Couldn't find one around any of the houses on the street so he then went back to get plans and returned to say there are no stop cocks to each property because the layout changed since over last few decades and public footpath under which they laid the pipes, in the meantime became part of private gardens to residential properties street below. He insisted in case I needed emergency repairs they would turn off the water to the street and pump it below the level of our house (we are on the hill, 5 houses are higher than us).

What they/your plumber should do is fit an stopcock outside
Yep Outside in the ground.

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Whatever they do, I'm on my own: I asked Southern Water few times over the phone - they won't provide external stop cock, they won't let me touch external pipes even if I found them below in my neighbours garden and they don't do any internal adjustments at all.

Most amusing side of it all was that one of the local plumbers I consulted about possible cost of such job suggested I should buy plumbing insurance from Southern Water and report it after few weeks as leaking stop valve and they would have to do something about it. Obviously I'm not keen on cheating or finding loopholes.

EliteHeat said:

The single shot freezing kits will work perfectly OK, subject to the proviso that any ice plug can fail regardless of the method used to create it. It would be common sense to have immediately to hand a method of rapidly shutting off the flow in the event of failure. In your case I would have a 15mm John Guest isolating valve ready to use. And maybe a JG stop-end, just in case.

Click to expand...

Never used pushfits before, any precaucions to using one on metal pipe (which btw looks more like 3/4 inch (ish), definitely not 15 mm, I'll measure it when I get back home)?

That`s an iron pipe..sorry steel and it was galvanised when new . Now you can read all the replys previously BUT I wouldn`t touch it if I wasn`t a plumber (which I am)....and the only way I`d do it is underground in your garden ...using a 110v. electric freezing kit and a couple of Philmac transition couplings to a short piece of 20mm MDPE with a stopcock connected ....and cut the galv. steel with a 12inch hacksaw....You dig the hole, and build a chamber for the tap after and you`re looking @ a days £ plus hire of freezer.Southern water area....Isle of Wight ? that`s plus ferry cost and B+B then

Nige F said:

You dig the hole, and build a chamber for the tap after and you`re looking @ a days £ plus hire of freezer.

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How much does a days worth of plumbers time go for nowadays?

Southern water area....Isle of Wight ? that`s plus ferry cost and B+B then

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Strangely enough - Kent. Medway area.

I didn`t realise they went that far E. Wife`s got an Uncle in Rochester as it happens .I guess £150 would be ball park as they say, plus say £50 for the machine and £25 for the bits ....then theres the concrete and bricks ,and manhole cover for you to do .......reckon £350 should see it done ...still cheaper than a BG powerflush

Think you should round that up to £500, if your doing the brickwork etc.

As for the Water Company not letting you touch the outside, provided its on your property any registered plumber can doit.

For the record, I have a shared mains (Bristol Water) and we had a leak. just like you no stopcock, water man turns up, and threatens me with wasting water if I don't repair it, silly man

Then he tells me its on my property so its my problem, but the leak may not be, just because its running out at the bottom, I say.

If that were the case and the leak was outside of your property we would have to fix the silly man said

Ok so I dig a trench and find the pipe, I them broke it off just under the pavement, and run a nice new plastic pipe down the drive, before I phone the Water Company and tell them the bad news.

Anyways a gang turns up, fits a stopcock, connects it to my nice new pipe and backfills.

You naughty man