rising damp problem

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I have a very old house (built approx 1880) and it has damp problem at the bottom of the exterior walls (both front and back. Its an old house i dont think there was a damp course put in wen it was built.

I just wanted to know what is the best solution to remedy this. I understand you can get a liquid gel that you inject in the wall that will act as a damp proof from rising damp. But i imagine this is very pricey, and are there any guarantees to this?

I have just gutted the entire house and think this is the best time to get it sorted, but i dont want to be ripped-off!!

Whats the best solution?
 
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in answer to your question it's difficult to say which the best solution is. it's not a diy job though and you will need it done professionally.

1st you need to be sure that it is rising and not condensation or penetrating damp. for eg i would have expected all walls to be damp not just the external front & back.

2nd is the condition of the brickwork. if it's good then injection is an option. if not so good then tanking may be better. the injection method can be cream or liquid. i have preference for the liquid as i can visually see that the bricks are being saturated. with the creams there is a little more emphasis on the installer being spot on as there is no visible change in appearance.

3rd is how well you get on with your neighbours as the party wall act applies and you would need to get a written agreement to drill the walls for the injection method.

4th depends on if you have a wooden floor. ideally injection is needed below the joist to protect them. if not then fitting dpc and treating the joist ends with preservative is equally as good but more time consuming.

all methods generally have the option for a guarantee of upto 30yrs although if it's going to fail then it will within 18 months if it's not been installed correctly.

i think probably in terms of the answer it's not necessarily the method but the installer that is key to getting value for money. there are a lot of good installers around the trouble is finding them. recommendation by friend is ideal. a tie to a reputable national company is also important (who backs the guarantee and who's name is important to them).

i suggest you get some quotes and perhaps read some of my other posts on the subject to get a bit of background. if your interested then there is a very good book in the library (dampness in buildings, oxley & gobert, ISBN 0 7506 2059 5).

once you've got the quotes then i can give you pointers on what to look for in distinguishing which are pucka.
 
Your house should have a physical dpc fitted, legislation forced their installation after 1875 but it is still possible that yours was missed. Either way this could be a mute point, buildings can perform perfectly well without a physical dpc. The important point to remember is that external ground levels must be 200mm below internal finished floor level to ensure adequate wall base ventilation. I disagree with the previous advice given, properties of this age were constructed using lime mortar and are meabt to go through a wet/dry 'breathing' cycle; using modern impermeable mortars and plasters will only dam in the damp and stop this breathing process. Personally I wouldn't use a chemical dpc and if you do decide to use one then you should be looking to use an aqueous silane cream such as dryzone. The point the previous contributor made about seeing the liquid penetrating the bricks is a common misconception. This is actually nothing more than water being forced from the bricks and this is why many chemical dpc's are stopped short of full penetration. Pressure injected systems don't give full penetration anyway, they work by a process called viscous fingering but do not give full saturation. If you want more specific advice then feel free to ask.
Incidently I'm assuming that your property has timber floors and not retrofit concrete?

Joe
 
common misconception

experience through doing eliminates misconception. anything that does not work becomes very clear in the daylight of reality.

you learn something everyday is also worthy of note. i can sleep much better now that i know the burns that i get if i contact the saturated bricks (rarely i can assure you) is merely water being forced from the bricks.

wow!
 
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I agree, experience can eliminate misconception but obviously not always... the reasons I gave are why Peter Cox Ltd who are the leading company in DPC installation technology do not use pressure injected techniques. They pioneered the diffusion method and have now moved onto injecting aqueous Silane creams into the mortar joint, this is because there are no problems associated with viscous fingering. For my own part, I'm a building surveyor and Area Maintenance Manager, I oversee the maintenace of 10,000 properties, I've written a dissertation on dpc injection for my degree and reviewed just about every piece of academic research that's available. You're one of an army of people to misunderstand how chemical dpc technology works. Don't take my word for it though, I'm happy to send you some published data on how these systems work.

Joe
 
Joe,

thanks for your response. i am very happy for all opinions to be added. what i can't accept is the public being misled. this is why i joined the dpc installer’s fraternity. i do not consider that i misunderstand how chemical dpc works as if i do then the British Board of Agreement is also wrong.

as you've gathered i am very interested in everything about damp and would much appreciate your offer to send (email is on my profile and open to all) or guide me to published information.

why i have so much conviction is that i do damp proofing also for my own properties. this provides the opportunity to monitor their performance over time. i also have the big incentive that any errors or deficiencies have to be put right by myself.

best wishes, jerry
 
Have a read of this article first, it pretty much says it all...

The myth of rising damp

BYLINE: Rachel Kelly and Tom Rowland

SECTION: Features

LENGTH: 930 words

Rachel Kelly and Tom Rowland on a steamy debate
It is a frequent worry for homeowners, but is rising damp so common? A London council thinks not. Its housing officials are so confident that rising damp is more likely to be condensation or damp penetration from outside that they are offering a Pounds 50 reward to any council employee who can prove them wrong.
Mike Parrett is manager of Lewisham Borough Council's housing disrepair scheme, and a recent recipient of an award from the Institute of Maintenance and Building Management for his work on damp problems. It is not that rising damp does not exist, he says; it does, but rarely. He has handled hundreds of supposed cases of rising damp over the past decade, but has yet to install a single chemical damp course. He says: "Millions of pounds are being thrown to the wall. Chemical damp-proofing does not work. Every time my staff looked at a case of so-called rising damp, they found the problem was condensation caused by poor heating and ventilation, or penetrating damp from raised ground levels or leaking pipes.


"I have never found moisture being drawn up from foundations. The point of the reward is to convince tenants that rising damp is a myth. Every wrong diagnosis could cost us Pounds 5,000 a house, which could provide central heating and ventilation for two properties: improvements that we know will cure dampness."
The council's claims have sparked a debate within the building industry about chemical damp-proofing. Treating rising damp is estimated to cost local authorities and owner-occupiers between Pounds 100 million and Pounds 200 million a year.
Dr Chris Coggins of the British Wood Preserving and Damp-Proofing Association represents about 220 rising damp firms. He says: "Rising damp does exist and can be treated. The trouble is that frequently it is not specialists who treat the problem."
Rising damp is often misdiagnosed, say others in the building trade, who say the "remedies" may be costly, intrusive and useless.
According to the Government-funded Building Research Establishment (BRE), rising damp makes up only about 10 per cent of damp it investigates in buildings. The BRE became so worried about incorrect diagnoses that it issued a guide last year pointing out how costly, and intrusive to the fabric of houses, were the remedies, and how vital it is to rule out condensation first. Unlike rising damp, which requires the drilling of holes along entire walls so that a liquid waterproofing can be pumped in, condensation can be cured by opening a window. It may also be wise to insert an air brick or two.
Part of the reason for the concern over rising damp is that homeowners are told about its perils by house surveyors. Research by the building construction department at the University of the South Bank suggests that 75 per cent of surveyors expect to find the condition in period homes they examine.
The standard "damp test" of surveyors is to prod a wall with an electronic conductance meter. The more damp be tween the two terminals, the higher the reading will be. But the study revealed that 74 per cent of the surveyors questioned did not know these meters are calibrated for timber, not masonry. Meters tend to over-react when prodded against a brick wall and show higher levels of moisture than are present. The manufacturers of the meters recommend that further tests are carried out to confirm the diagnosis of rising damp, but few surveyors bother. Instead, terrified of the prospect of being sued for negligence, they write survey reports that recommend that the damp be investigated by a specialist.
Unfortunately, most owners and prospective buyers faced with this advice phone a firm for a free damp survey, and fail to realise that the "specialists" fielded to carry out this free service are sales staff often paid on commission for selling pumped chemical anti-damp treatments.
Better safe than sorry, you might think. But it is not clear whether these chemical damp-proofing treatments prevent damp from rising in walls. Researchers at the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology have warned homeowners that the treatments are not being properly used. The technique is to drill the wall with a row of holes, then pump each with damp-proofing chemicals for between ten and 20 seconds. The Manchester team concluded that to create an effective barrier, the liquid should be pumped into every hole for up to 20 minutes. If the wall is damp when the work is done, the chemical will not adhere.
The BRE says that the only way to be certain a wall has been damp-proofed is to cut out the brick work from both sides and insert a layer of slate to stop any water. But this is hugely expensive.
The installation of central heating, proper ventilation and maintenance of gutters and downpipes cures most damp problems, says the South Bank University construction technologists. They add, incidentally, that it is remarkably difficult to get water to rise through brickwork, even under laboratory conditions.
BE SURE OF THE DIAGNOSIS
WHEN rising damp is misdiagnosed, it is usually because of misuse of electrical moisture meters. Such meters are reliable for use with timber, but building materials such as brickwork often contain matter that will give very high moisture readings, even when no dampness is present. Dampness levels in masonry should be analysed by a method using calcium carbide, not by electrical moisture meters. This method of testing can be carried out on-site.....

The key issue for me has always been not that chemical DPC's aren't effective but that rising damp is extremely rare and frequently diagnosed with the use of handheld electronic moisture meters alone. More often than not chemical DPC's are installed where they're not required. As part of my dissertation I resurveyed 10 properties that had been surveyed by DPC specialists with a vested interest in selling chemical dpc's. Not one of those properties actually had a rising damp problem and i proved this by carrying out salts analysis tests and calcium carbide tests.
Chemical dpc's can be effective where rising damp is proven but they're a very hit and miss affair due to quite often poor installation standards. A lot of specialists don't even bother treating the mortar joints despite the fact that these are the major moisture pathway for rising damp. If that happens then chemical injection is a complete waste of time.

Go to: http://www.safeguardeurope.com/applications/rising_damp.php?gclid=CKqux4rAy5ECFSPIXgod2WmWzw

and download the data sheet on rising damp and it's control. It's produced by Safeguard but actually explains very well the process of viscous fingering and why pressure injected systems are less successful. Sure this is an industry document but it follows all the academic research on the subject. It's interesting that you mention that British Board of Agrement; they've actually approved many chemical injection products on the basis that only the brick is treated, the systems appear relatively successful because the cement based renders and plasters dam in the damp. The BBA have got it wrong on a huge scale and in my opinion it's only a matter of time before all the industry moves away from treating bricks and starts treating the mortar courses.

Joe
 
Joe,

i can relate to a lot of the article but there are many clear inconsistencies as well and therefore don't find it useful.

we are obviously worlds apart. to help you see my world i offer help as follows:

1) visit the library and read the damp bible (see earlier in the post re oxley & gobert)
2) get your windscreen cleaned. put ***** ****** into google and hit "i'm feeling lucky". i hope your are as i can see your hearts in the right place.

in the distant past my empire was crumbling. staggeringly caused by failure of injection cream (not installed by me i may add). Staggeringly also by following the above 2 help steps dampness is proven by doing and factual evidence to be no longer a problem to me or my customers.
 
Jerry,

I'm amazed, you continue to hold a view that flies in the face of all the accepted academic evidence. The reason you notice that DPC creams have failed along with all the other methods is due to the fact that rising damp has been wrongly diagnosed. Tell me, how do you diagnose rising damp?

I'm a building professional Jerry, not a dpc installer. You mention one book. I suggest you read:

Dampness in buildings by Douglas and Stirling.
Diagnosing damp by Burkinshaw and Parrett
Surveying Buildings by Hollis
Understanding Dampness by Trotman
Flood Damaged property by Proverbs
Control of damp in old Buildings by SPAB
BRE Technical Document 245, rising damp in walls advice and guidance by Trotman
Rising Damp, advice and guidance by Douglas Kent
The PCA code of practice for the installation of remedial dpc in walls
Wall base damp by Burkinshaw
Development of ground floor construction by Kent
Control of damp, historic buildings factsheet
Remedial treatment of buildings by Richardson
BS6576:2005 code of practice for diagnosis of rising damp in walls
COBRA 1995: Moisture Measurement in Masonry by Howell


I've read them all and more; many of these books are available from the Royal Institutute of Chartered Surveyors website. www.rics.org. They are all accepted academic text for building surveying professionals. Your one book doesn't even scratch the surface so maybe when you've reviewed this material we can have a more coherent discussion without you resorting to making patronising comments like, 'i see your hearts in the right place.' The difference between you and I is that I've actually done all the academic research and I don't have a vested interest in installing dpc's which blinds me to the true facts.
 
Oh and whilst I think on theres probably another reason why you've noticed that aqeuous creams have failed. These products were developed by Safeguard chemicals in conjunction with Peter Cox Ltd. They are marketed under the name of Dryzone or Drywall and contain 60% active ingredient. Unfortunately once these products hit the market a host of competitors copied them but included far less active ingredient in their products. These 'counterfeit' products have proven to be far less successful than the original because they were manufactured on the cheap. Like anything, you only get what you pay for!
 
Is this turning into a rehash of Softus's 'rising damp does not exist' mantra?

Its also intresting to note that despite all these published works - many of which are available from the RICS, a significant number of building surveyors are still diagnosing rising damp. So what is the RICS doing about this? If it is a big a problem as is infered, then surely the professional body should be stepping in?

Does every building survey report that refers to 'possible rising damp' (ie every report that mentions a bit of dampness near ground floor level) do so out of negligence, incompetance, or just to cover themselves from future claims?

In your recent literature search, did you include the number of civil court actions which were convincing enough for a judge to agree on the existance of rising damp based on expert testonomy?

Just to clarify, does rising damp exist but is misdiagnosed, or is there no rising damp?

And do treatments for rising damp not work on the rising damp which does not exist in the first place :confused:
 
If you look at my post in reply to the 'does rising damp exist' question you'll see that I'm very clear on the fact that it does. I personally have an issue with Chartered Surveyors abdicating responsibility for damp diagnosis to the DPC industry. Quite often these are not independent damp specialists and have a vested interest in selling DPC injection; you wouldn't ask a double glazing salesman to come and repair your windows yet this is precisely the scenario we see repeatedly in the DPC injection industry.
RICS have given very clear guidance about the use of electronic moisture meters and the fact that they should not be used in isolation for the diagnosis of rising damp. The problem with Building Surveyors is that we don't all specialise in building pathology or damp. I do, but many practitioners have specialised in other areas in the same way a doctor might specialise in peadiatrics. It's far to big a subject to know everything and this is fine, Surveyors should be honest about their own limitations, indeed this forms part of the RICS code of ethics, but they should also recognise what constitutes an independent damp survey and not abdicate responsibility to the DPC injection industry. Most of these surveys are free for a reason and as we all know theres no such thing as a free lunch.
 
Joe,

i don't know what you want me to say.

but i am getting worried about you though. just to be sure - do you own a shop in london, have a dislike for good football, and don't believe anyone has landed on the moon (conspiracy).

i don't feel this post is helping mk85 so i won't respond further.
 
Jerry,

I don't want you to say anything. I was hoping you might be able to back up your convictions with reasoned argument then we might have been able to have an interesting discussion but the best you can do is; 'i've read a book' and 'in my experience' followed by playground insults. It did make me smile when you said you were concerned about the public being misled, you belong to an industry that's been misleading the public for years.
I look forward to reading more of your 'expert' advice on damp.

Joe
 
Guys guys guys...i'm glad you are really passionate about this ..but you've both got me really confused with your arguments. A couple of things i would like to point out that might help is

The interanl floor is concrete...no wood at all!!

The internal floor is approx 25cm higher than the external floors both at the front and rear. i can see the damp from the inside walls.

Also i dont think the house was built with the current mortar/cement we use now..it is a grey charcoal colour. Altho the brickwork was pointed a long time ago, however where the pointing has come off you can see the grey cement (or watever it is). (but internally its built from the normal sand and cement mix.

Hope that helps....
 

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