Do I need this upgraded first??

alex s · 28 Feb 2008

Your advice please.

I am starting on the refurb of our house, first port of call is the old electrics.
Before I(under building control) or a spark, touch anything, do i need to get the supply uprated? Pics below show the layout, the dia of the metal incoming supply seems small to say the least!! The earth is a joke..

The house is currently a 3 bed semi, but is going to become a 5 bed with a double detached garage with a reasonable demand for power(electric heater, compressor etc)

Is it actually possible to have done, and is it a very expensive job (i can provide access by removing floor/digging drive etc)

Or is the supply ok as is.

Last question, if they do this, will they connect to the fuse box, as it is well below current standard .

thanks in advance.

Roo · 28 Feb 2008

Phone your SUPPLIER (not DNO) ad tell them your cutout has a fused neutral.

Whether it is or whether it has a link in the neutral doesn't matter they should still send somebody to have a look first then arrange for it to be replaced.

I would have thought this would be free of charge.

When this work is going to be done tell them you'd also like an isolator that way you can turn the power off when you like legally to fit your new CU.

Steve · 28 Feb 2008

Roo, the meter and tails (grey) appear newer - would a meter man connect a new meter to a fused neutral?

Taylortwocities · 28 Feb 2008

There are newish seals on both the phase & neutral fuse boxes. I'd suspect the neutral has a solid link.

ukants · 28 Feb 2008

Bigger and better than me will be along to give advice soon but IMHO:
-I'd like confirmation that the supply neutral is not fused but I don't think it will be. (The tails (16.0mm?) look fairly recent, as do the seals, so I'd hope the neutral fuse had been replaced with a permanent connection).
-Don't think the DNO will upgrade anything (certainly not as a necessity) to be honest, if it's good working order. Not sure I'd call the main earth a joke. Though old it's c.s.a. may well be fine depending on the service fuse (60A?) though can't really tell from the pics and it's clamped twice, so I think the DNO will consider it adequate. Of course, you can pay them to do most things.
-Is there any equipotential bonding? Can't see any going to that gas supply bottom right but that doesn't mean it's not there.
-Yes, they'll connect to that consumer unit (well, actually the DNO won't go into the C.U. but if your sparky connects new tails to the C.U. ready for them, they'll connect them to their meter). A C.U. with more ways and r.c.d. protection would certainly be better when the inprovements start but that won't concern DNO.
-Where do the (single insulated?) cables top left of the bottom pic go? Is there another C.U. somewhere?

Edit to say: Much too slow!!

alex s · 29 Feb 2008

Thanks for the help so far.
The ladel says the meter was changed in 1998 if that is any help regarding the netural fuse.

If the main fuse is a 60A supply, will that be enough for a 5 bed house with the demands of a family of 4?

If I buy the isolator, for them to conect to, can i fit this, ( for them to connect to) and can it be mounted on the same board?
If yes, what would you sugest (Quality over price is my motto)

The seems to be no other earth conections apart from the one shown in the photo, from the supply to the board then to the CU.

One last thing, am i right in thinking that my earth is of the TN-S type?

Roo · 29 Feb 2008

Steve said:
Roo, the meter and tails (grey) appear newer - would a meter man connect a new meter to a fused neutral?

Yes.
It would be what we call TROUBLE CALLED tho which means we get on the phone and get mains out ASAP to at least have a look.

Not all fused neutrals have the link some have been forgotten about, so if you can't get into the cutout and have a look it's always best to assume it is still fused.

ukants said:
-Yes, they'll connect to that consumer unit (well, actually the DNO won't go into the C.U. but if your sparky connects new tails to the C.U. ready for them, they'll connect them to their meter).

Hmmmm!
Not around here ukants.
I know some DNO's do do that but we don't for safety reasons, it's always best to ask the DNO for an isolator, it's there for future use too then.

Alex s said:
If I buy the isolator, for them to conect to, can i fit this, ( for them to connect to) and can it be mounted on the same board?
If yes, what would you sugest (Quality over price is my motto)

Contact your SUPPLIER Alex and ask them to fit one, this saves you worrying if it can go on their board or if they'll connect to it etc.

To be honest I fit them if the customer ask's me to but I shouldn't according to the rules, it just saves me running back to the van to get one of ours

ukants · 29 Feb 2008

Hmmmm!
Not around here ukants.
I know some DNO's do do that but we don't for safety reasons, it's always best to ask the DNO for an isolator, it's there for future use too then.

I bow to your greater knowledge on this one Roo and personally I do fit isolators but what do you do if you get to customers house to reconnect the supply or change meter etc. and the sparks has fit a shiny new CU and tails (or even just tails, as is the case here) but no isolator and doesn't want one installed by your good self (for whatever reason)? Surely you do connect his new tails to load side of your meter?

Roo · 29 Feb 2008

ukants said:
I bow to your greater knowledge on this one Roo and personally I do fit isolators but what do you do if you get to customers house to reconnect the supply or change meter etc. and the sparks has fit a shiny new CU and tails (or even just tails, as is the case here) but no isolator and doesn't want one installed by your good self (for whatever reason)? Surely you do connect his new tails to load side of your meter?

I see where your coming from but no.

We are responsible for supplying the premises nothing else.

We would give the premises a supply and fit and Isolator ready for the spark to connect their tails.

If an isolator was refused for what ever reason then i'd phone the powers that be and they'd probably say ok leave it and we wouldn't give you a supply.

Saying that I did have an off peak installation once that was ready to go (certs left etc) but there was no room for an isolator.
I phoned the boss and he said to connect up but to test polarity, connections etc in the CU first but thats very rare and I've only been told to do it that time.

Think the boss felt sorry for the old dear as she had no heaters in the winter.

Marco1976 · 29 Feb 2008

Ro,

I have a few questions if you don't mind:

1) when you change meters d you reconnect the customer if there
is no isolator.

2) if customer rang you to fit isolator and you do so, do you connect to cu and switch on?

3) when you change meter and / or install is swtch do you open up CU to see which tail is live and which is neutral? I guess you cannot rely on he colour of the wire going in the meter to ascertain polarity.
I am about to request n upgrade rom supplier / DNO and I could do with having a bit more knowledge.

Please don't tell me that for a routine meter change i need to get a spark in

Roo · 29 Feb 2008

Marco1976 said:
Ro,

I have a few questions if you don't mind:

1) when you change meters d you reconnect the customer if there
is no isolator.

Yes.

Marco1976 said:
2) if customer rang you to fit isolator and you do so, do you connect to cu and switch on?

If the CU was not connected then NO.

If the CU was connected and I could test polarity at a socket on that CU before I start and after i finish the job then YES.

Marco1976 said:
3) when you change meter and / or install is swtch do you open up CU to see which tail is live and which is neutral? I guess you cannot rely on he colour of the wire going in the meter to ascertain polarity.

Correct you can't rely on the colour of the tails which is why we are told to mark up all tails with the relevant tape (L1 and N at the moment) before removing to reduce the chance of a wrong polarity, and no we are not supposed to go in to the CU although sometimes I do if I think I've loosened a connection moving the tails about.

Marco1976 said:
Please don't tell me that for a routine meter change i need to get a spark in

No you don't.

I don't make the rules I just have to try and follow them.

alex s · 29 Feb 2008

OK guys, an update. I called as you suggested and said the neutral may be fused. They are coming round tomorrow morning to check (which I was quite impressed with the speed)

I did ask the phone operator if I could request they fit an isolator at the same time, he seemed to think they would not do that.

It is edf energy coming btw.

If I ask will they be able to tell me the current max ampage of the supply?

Will let you know the outcome.

Once again, thanks for all the advice.

Taylortwocities · 29 Feb 2008

They will probably unseal both live & neutral and will then be able to tell u what the fuse rating is.

alex s · 5 Mar 2008

Update...
Well looks like a couple of you were right, it had a fused netural!!
EDF are coming round tonight to replace the whole cut out and upgrade it to a 100amp supply.
Which is good news.
They will not supply an isolator though.

Thanks for all the advice.

Alex

JohnD · 5 Mar 2008

maybe you still have time to go out and buy one, plus an enclosure, plus a metre each of 25mm tails.

Get a metre of 16mm G&Y and an earth block too, or they may reconnect your old earh wire and seal the terminal so you can't change it later.

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Do I need this upgraded first??

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