Patio Advice required

leevis · 19 Mar 2008

Hi All
I have a largish garden which i am hoping to patio but it is taking ages and ages.
I want to cover and area of 25ft by 12ft. Half of this I have already completed by laying cement.
The question I have is on the second half of this. Doing the cement took me an age because I am on my own and can only screed so much by myself so I had to do it at the weekends.
On this second half, can I just dump a LOAD of MOT Type 1 into it to bring it up to the level of the other half and then lay the slabs onto that?
Obviously i would need to put mortar down but can this be dabbed or would i have to put loads down?
Also, can you screed MOT Type 1. I am trying to get out of doing the concreting basically.
Lee

WabbitPoo · 19 Mar 2008

Let's try to get this straight:

Are you saying you are/were going to concrete the area before slabbing? If so, that is completely unnecessary anyway. Compacted MoT is fine, but dont be tempted to mortar using the 5 blobs method, regardless of what they are laid on. Not clear what you mean by "screeding" the MoT.

Plenty of advice on using a full mortar bed here or at pavingexpert.com

noseall · 19 Mar 2008

leevis said:
Hi All
I have a largish garden which i am hoping to patio but it is taking ages and ages.
I want to cover and area of 25ft by 12ft. Half of this I have already completed by laying cement.
The question I have is on the second half of this. Doing the cement took me an age because I am on my own and can only screed so much by myself so I had to do it at the weekends.
On this second half, can I just dump a LOAD of MOT Type 1 into it to bring it up to the level of the other half and then lay the slabs onto that?
Obviously i would need to put mortar down but can this be dabbed or would i have to put loads down?
Also, can you screed MOT Type 1. I am trying to get out of doing the concreting basically.
Lee

leevis · 20 Mar 2008

Yeah i think i wasted a bit of time doing the concreting bit but it wasnt a massivo amount. I installed the massive shed on one bit and I have another smaller one 8x8 on the other.

I can see now that it is certainly going to be a bit easier to do the next bit with MOT Type 1.

I have been having another thought though which i need to air.

Slabbing is ok and would probably look good, although i have been looking into decking.

Whats everyones opinion on decking this area as it is rather large. I have 2 to do each at 32 square meters plus a likely decking path of about 60ft ish. I reckon i would need at least 40 joists (probably more) and something in the region of 200 boards which by reckoning would cost:

£9 per board x 200 = £1800
and then i still have the path to do

Whereas patio/slab would cost:
400x400 size = 190 per patio = 380 in total @£2 per slab = £760
+ MOT Type 1 (probably need about 5 tonnes = £300
Total £1060
and then i still have the path to do

I want it to look good. Give the choice, what would you have?

WabbitPoo · 20 Mar 2008

If they are done right, both would look good. Decking is probably easier for the novice to get right.

Deluks · 20 Mar 2008

Your prices seem a litle high tbh. Even buying from Wickes you could get 5 bags of MOT for £200. Shop around for the decking and save £100's

Thermo · 20 Mar 2008

you should be able to get decking at about £1.75 per metre ish, dependent where you go, across a trade counter. If youve got a lot then you may be able to haggle them down cheaper.

should be able to get the mot way cheaper, especially if delivered loose, find a local aggregate supplier. Dont forget cement and sand in your costings for laying the slabs as well

as to which, its horses for courses and personal preference

leevis · 25 Mar 2008

Got my Type 1, ordered 5 Tonnes. One and a half went on the Patio at the back, now kinda level(ish). Probably another tonne going to go on the path.

The question i have is what to bed the slabs onto, mortar wise. What i have, or will have very soon is two types of base, one full concrete and one MOT Type 1.

I have read that the best way of bedding the slabs on the MOT is to do it on a 'wet bed' which appears to be a mix of sharp sand (2) building sand (2) and concrete (1). I am really unsure of the quantities of each part of this as some say sharp sand (4) and concrete (1). Need some confirmation of best practice on this.

For the concrete base i was going to wet the concrete then either do the five dabs thing or do the same thing as the MOT base.

Need some confirmation/suggestions on this.

Lee

WabbitPoo · 25 Mar 2008

Wet bed on both. I use 2:2:1 sharp:building sand:cement. Others use more soft and less sharp. Not too critical. Dont use 5 blobs over any surface. I know it seems easier, quicker and is cheaper, but it'll lead to voids under the slabs for all sorts of probs later, maybe not for you but for the next family. Seems like you wanna do it right, so do it right!

leevis · 25 Mar 2008

Sounds like a good move to me 2:2:1.

Any ideas how much 1 ton (one of them big bags) would do, slab wise?

Lee

whitehaven · 28 Mar 2008

I TONNE OF SHORT SAND AT 2 INCH DEEP COVERS 10FT SQUARE (10FT X 10FT).
Just done my patio...Ir ead that many different articles & websites on how to lay a patio. In the end went for 4 inch compacted mot type 1 then 2 inch screeded sharp sand then lay slabs on top with a very thin scattering of cement. They say 10 sharp 1 cement but not to mix by cement mixer instead srceed sand,then scatter about 2kg cement to 1 metre of prepared sand then lightly rake & screed. Then lay slabs on this.

Only been down 3 days but some slabs move slightly, not pointed up yet though so hopefully will settle, rain hasn't helped. Was i supposed to whacker the sharp sand aswell as the mot?

Sites I have read say that don't do a solid mortar mix, reason being that if it rains on cold frosty days then the water has nowhere to run & can crack the mortar, hence to be laid on a sand bed where the water can run through. Makes sense & this is why I laid mine in the above method.
Will point up at the weekend, hopefully will stop the ever so slight movement.

WabbitPoo · 28 Mar 2008

If your slabs move up and down (say, at the corners) then pointing will do nothing much to stop that. Yes, you should have whackered the sand too, then screeded again with your plank to the desired height.

This is why you really ought to lay on a mortar bed. Take a look at mine and, more notably, Thermo's posts on the subject. We are pro landscapers and that's how we do it (ok, so we don't know everything, but experience does count for a lot).

Yes, you can use screeded sand, and yes its a bit quicker, but it won't last. That's why I am called in to take up so many poor patios after 5 years.

whitehaven · 28 Mar 2008

Cool, Will lift my slabs they it's only a 9ft circle so will only take mins to lift, will then whacker then screed & relay

whitehaven · 28 Mar 2008

wabbitpoo...Once I Have whackered the sharp sand & screeded can i then just lay the slabs on top?

WabbitPoo · 28 Mar 2008

Yes you can.

What type of slab you use determines, to an extent at any rate, which method you can use. Big, heavy slabs, such as Marshalls Chancery will sit OK ish n screeded sand. Thiner, lighter ones need a full mortar bed. Natural stone certainly does.

Think about it - what's to stop them moving on top of the sand? At the very least you should mortar the ones around the edge if using a sand bed method. Also, the mortar joints (you don't intend to brush sand/cement in, do you) will crack after a few seasons of foot traffic. The screeded bed method is a temporary solution, IMHO.

I know everyone thinks "that's the way all patios are laid" but how many patios have you seen that haven't looked ****e after a few years?

If it wasn't for the way new house builders lay them so badly I wouldn't have a job, though!

So, not to rain on your parade, but the mortar method does avoid lots of these problems.

diynot

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