Stones coming up....gutted...

maf20 · 8 Jun 2008

Gutted.

I laid my stone patio a few weeks ago, and I've just gone to have a look and noticed that at least 5 of the slabs are coming up when I try to pick them up. I've tested most of the others and they seem ok, and I will test them all this week (didn't have the heart to do it today).

Should I be worrying now that they may all not be stable? I haven't started to grout yet, but was going to do so next weekend.

WabbitPoo · 9 Jun 2008

What method did you use to lay them?

Whatever method you used, then if some are loose then of course, they may all be loose. I rather think you know that.

maf20 · 9 Jun 2008

I guess I do, but I really hope not.

The ground was dug out, flattened, 4 inches of compacted hardcore, then a full mortar bed of around 50-80mm. 4 sharp sand, 1 cement.

I though that was sufficient, so a bit puzzled really; although never done this before. Have check most of them now and haven't find anymore loose ones yet. Was just a bit puzzled why some were loose and the rest weren't.

Any ideas? Does this method sound ok?

Thermo · 9 Jun 2008

may not be what you laid them on, it may be that you have walked on them too early and loosened them. The fact that you havent pointed them until now doesnt help, as the pointing will help to keep the slabs stable.
or you may well have not laid a few properly!

maf20 · 9 Jun 2008

mmm

I did read that they should be pointed preferable within 4 hours, but haven't been able to do it until this coming weekend, and that was always going to be the case.

left them 48 hours before I walked on them as well. I also made up a bucket with a dusting of cement and water and brushed the underside to help them stick. I spoke with someone 'in the know' anf they said it perhaps isn't uncommon to have a few come loose. I'll get on and point them up (after I've relaid of course) ASAP.

One thing, some of the gaps between the stones are a bit filled with mortar, not too much though and only a few. Should I chip this away, or just point around/over it?

Thermo · 10 Jun 2008

best to remove it or it shows through the pointing if its too high

maf20 · 15 Jun 2008

Folks

I'm really struggling with this pointing up lark!

I had a good go at it yesterday, and managed a metre long line in about 4 hours! At this rate the new garden I promised my family back in September maybe ready for Christmas 2010.

I've read at about polymeric sand, and also modified mortars that are pumped in. This all sounds very appealing to me indeed! I'm not the most intricate of folk, so carrying out fiddly pointing is not my main strength.

What are people's thoughts on modified pumped/poured mortars and polymeric and full bonding polymeric sand? I have a 18(ish) sq metre patio, with riven natural stone (dutch pattern).

I'm guessing it's going to be dearer, but if it's quicker I'll pay anything!!!

Thermo · 15 Jun 2008

dont touch them. How exactly are you doing it?

maf20 · 16 Jun 2008

I just followed the guidelines on pavingexpert.com really. I know you get out what you put in, and nothing's every easy and all that sort of stuff. But it is literally going to take me weeks to do at my rate, and I'm not doing a good job of keeping the mortar away from the surface either. I've got to get cracking so I can begin to level out the rest and turf it; and the summer's getting shorter!

Are polymerics and modified mortars really that bad?

Or am I confined to week upon week of poor pointing???

thanks for the feedback

WabbitPoo · 16 Jun 2008

If your mortar is staining the slabs then it is too wet.

As for time taken, use a pointing iron (or something of roundish cross-section) to just keep pushing the mortar in until you cant get any more in. Do so with long strokes of the iron. If you have "struck" it enough, as you hently brush along the joint, any loose will be removed easily, leaving a smooth joint.

As with most things mortar-related, getting thst consistency right makes it a lot easier - too wet and you'll have the problems you describe - too dry and it'll never set up properly.

Where in the country are you - if near me I'd pop over to show you how (for the price of a tea and big slice of cake!)

maf20 · 16 Jun 2008

That's an extremely kind offer, but tucked far up in the north east, and I probably couldn't afford that big a piece of cake!

I'll try and make it a bit drier perhaps. I know I haven't done the most amazing job of laying them in the first place, but I'd love to get it finished sharpish.

I'll try with a drier mix. But are these polymeric sands and modified mortars no good full stop?

Thermo · 16 Jun 2008

no they are crap, which is why most pros dont use them.

right lets start again. The mix wants to be damp. Damp enough that if you squeeze it in a tight ball in your hand, no water comes out and it does not stain your hand, but damp enough that it holds its shape.

The easiest and quickest way i have found for pointing up is to get a piece of feather edge board about 8-12 inches long. You can quite easily work it very quickly and firmly into the joints with the thin long edge of the feather edge, and then strike the joint with a pointing trowel or jointing tool to get the finish you want. It takes a bit of time to get used to it, but when i was shown the feather edge after years of using a pointing trowel it was a revelation. I can literally point a patio in a fraction of the time i used to.

bobby spray · 17 Jun 2008

Thermo. What have you against polymeric like Romex? The guys over on paving expert sing their praises. Or is it just the price? Pointing is the worst job about paving, anything that makes it easier has got to worth a try.

maf20 · 17 Jun 2008

Thanks Bobby.

I've been trying to leave something on there but each time I log on it says I don't have th authority to start a new post.

Any ideas?

Thermo · 17 Jun 2008

bobby spray said:
Since you got the info originally from paving expert maybe you should ask on the forum there? They are a cracking bunch of guys, really helpful.

Thermo. What have you against polymeric like Romex? The guys over on paving expert sing their praises. Or is it just the price? Pointing is the worst job about paving, anything that makes it easier has got to worth a try.

never had a problem with traditional methods, dont see the pice as an issue at all, if thats what the customer wants, i just dont think they do the job r look good

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Stones coming up....gutted...

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