Does Part P Work

Whenever any new regulation comes into force it always involves extra cost to the final user. As a qualified electrician has to pay considerable sums of money to a trade association this inevitably increases the cost of the job. This will in turn encourage more DIY people "to have a go". As Part P has had little publicity to Joe Public, how will he know he has broken any law until he sells the property.

If I had completed an apprenticeship in a trade and passed all necessary exams, that should make me a competent person to carry on that trade. I would feel insulted if I was told that I am not competent until I have a piece of paper from some organization that wants my money to prove that I have done my exams.

As a reasonably competent DIY man who has all the test equipment and keep up to date with the "regs", I object to paying the local council to give a completion certificate for work they know nothing about. However, I would be happy to pay a qualified electrician to check my work and issue a certificate, but Part P does not allow that.

Finally, I fully agree with Part P in principle, but feel it is another poorly thought out legislation.

The principal of Part P is good. And many electricians felt they knew it all and how dare anyone as them to return to education or to inspect their work. But much of the work was sub-standard and not all due to the electricians companies also had the altitude that electricians should not be reading regulations but getting on with the work.

But the part of Part P which is designed to allow the non registered electrician or other non registered people from the local builder to full DIY to do work which is directly overseen by the local council building control has completely failed.

With the lowest charge for any work at £115 in my area no one in their right mind is going to pay the council their adsorbent charges for minor works. So most the DIY stuff remains un-tested as before. In fact it is worse as the commercial electricians no longer can do the odd domestic job to boost their income so there is an acute shortage of electricians willing to do the small job.

The large job where part of other building work or full re-wires still can be completed under Part P a £115 bill to LABC is not that much on a £2000 job but where the whole job is going to cost £50 paying the LABC £115 is silly.

It has also created a method for the unscrupulous electrician to make money. We have all seen it. If I don’t put this through books so no VAT or Part P I can do the job a lot cheaper and I can do it for £X. Once the householder accepts this they as stuck if they admit to LABC they knew Part P was not being completed by electrician then they are responsible. So to complain about any sub-standard work will land them as well as electrician into hot water. Any work under £115 just not worth it so now never reported.

This of course makes the records show Part P is working as a lot less bad workmanship is being reported.

If the £115 charge minus say £15 for admin for £2000 worth of work was charged at a pro-rata rate for smaller jobs plus an admin charge of £15 so a £1000 job would cost £65 and a £500 job £40 and a £50 job £17.50 then it may work!

It also needs a permit to work. On my parents house the only paper work received from the LABC was the completion certificate. Because they were disabled there was no charge so not even a receipt. So as the electrician all I had was the house holders word that Part P had been applied for and I could start work.

So as the electrician I have to take customers word. This also means if I do work without Part P I can claim the customer said they were taking care of that. And as long as my work is up to scratch and I issue the installation certificates it would be very hard to show I was the villain.

However if I had to view the permit to work before starting then it would close that loop hole for the electrician. Where emergency work the electrician could be required to inform the LABC of any work requiring Part P for which he had not had a permit to work.

These changes would also allow electricians to build up a range of work that could be inspected so they could become members of one of the organisations.

I have complained to my MP and put forward my point of view. And I feel sorry for those DIY’er who have done the same.

For those who have not complained to their MP. Well it’s your own fault for not complaining and no point in belly aching on here as it will not make a scrap of difference. Do the right thing and complain to your MP.

Eric

Eric,
It is the person carrying out the work who is responsible for notification of the work about to be carried out to the relevant LABC; and not the homeowner. So be careful as it's your neck on the block...

The way I did it before I joined a scheme was get deposits as 2 payments 1 cheque for materials and another for the notification (made out to the LABC) then you notify and send off the customers cheque with the appropriate forms.

Doing it this way helps both of you, you both know it's going to be notified..

That's not what the council or Part P document says.
Since for example the disabled get Part P for free it is necessary that the home owner applies.
At least it is in this area.

Eric:

1) Read the Building Regulations - see what it says about what the person carrying out the work must or must not do (not just with electrical work - look at all controlled activities). There is absolutely no way that the instructions are aimed at the householder/homeowner - the only interpretation that makes any sense is that when they say "person carrying out the work" (or a variation thereof) they mean literally that - the person actually carrying out the work, not the person who employed them.

2) Read the Guide to the Building Regulations - see what it says about who is responsible for ensuring compliance. (Hint - it's not the householder/homeowner or whoever employed the persons carrying out controlled work).

maltaron said:

As a qualified electrician has to pay considerable sums of money to a trade association.

Click to expand...

How much?

Assuming that he would in any case have calibrated test equipment, and would in any case use it and issue EICs/MWCs, and would in any case have adequate PLI, and would in any case offer his customers a warranty, and would in any case have procedures in place for dealing with complaints, how much extra per hour would he have to add to his rates to cover the registration fees?

Eric,

This s a direct quote from the Flintshire building reg's website (well not from Flintshire's site, but linked from)

"If a person carrying out building work contravenes the Building Regulations, the local authority or another person may decide to take them to the magistrates' court where they could be fined up to £5000 for the contravention, and up to £50 for each day the contravention continues after conviction (section 35 of the Building Act 1984)."

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/genpub/en/1115315273737.html

Not notifying is classed as a contravention of the regs

ericmark said:

So as the electrician I have to take customers word. This also means if I do work without Part P I can claim the customer said they were taking care of that. And as long as my work is up to scratch and I issue the installation certificates it would be very hard to show I was the villain.

Click to expand...

The law is absolutely clear that it is your responsibility to notify. If you choose to delegate that responsibility to a third party and just take their word for it that they have discharged that responsibility then you must expect to catch whatever sh** starts flying around when it turns out that you were misguided.

However if I had to view the permit to work before starting then it would close that loop hole for the electrician.

Click to expand...

Notification is YOUR responsibility. If you choose to go ahead without asking to see the letter from the council approving the work then that is your own foolish mistake.

Where emergency work the electrician could be required to inform the LABC of any work requiring Part P for which he had not had a permit to work.

Click to expand...

That's the way it already is.

These changes would also allow electricians to build up a range of work that could be inspected so they could become members of one of the organisations.

Click to expand...

They already can.

I have complained to my MP

Click to expand...

About what? The scale of LABC charges?

For those who have not complained to their MP. Well it’s your own fault for not complaining and no point in belly aching on here as it will not make a scrap of difference. Do the right thing and complain to your MP.

Click to expand...

The words "p*ss*ng", "wind" and "in" spring to mind...

ban-all-sheds said:

maltaron said:

As a qualified electrician has to pay considerable sums of money to a trade association.

Click to expand...

How much?

Assuming that he would in any case have calibrated test equipment, and would in any case use it and issue EICs/MWCs, and would in any case have adequate PLI, and would in any case offer his customers a warranty, and would in any case have procedures in place for dealing with complaints, how much extra per hour would he have to add to his rates to cover the registration fees?

Click to expand...

I'm a DI with the NIC,,

I've just had my renewal through and the actual costs are:

Registration approx £430 a year
Notification £1.50 + VAT per job
Insurance backed warranty £1.50 per job
1/2 day off for annual assesment

I already have test instruments, issue certificates & have liability insurance, so say it costs me £2 per working day + £3.22 per notifyable job extra.....

It isn't much is it???

I read Part P at http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/professionals/en/4000000001253.html which is a government web site so I trust as being correct.
Too many times have I listened to what others have said only to find they had been misread so I just stick to government site now.

The major problem with Part P legislation and Corgi registration is in the way it is policed. If you are on the radar through being part of an approved persons scheme you are under scrutiny all the time and have to stick to the regs. The problem is the people that join the schemes are, mostly, those that do things by the book anyway.

Those people that are inclined to cut corners and not do it properly don't join the schemes and still get away with it because they are not on the radar.

What is needed is public awareness of the dangers they are putting themselves in by using tradesmen that are not competent and a real commitment from the authorities to crack down on the cowboys.

Hopefully this may get better with the new gas registration scheme, although Corgi are already trying to muddy the waters,with the electrical schemes you are in the hands of the LBC who just haven't the time to deal with it effectively.

If it is Not Part P then the government should be taken to court for saying it is.
It is a government document with Part P written all over it that's good enough for me.

Next you will say my red book is not BS7671

FFS Eric - open your eyes and read.

It does not say it's Part P - it says it is Approved Document P - in large letters on the front cover.

Also read the first few paragraphs on p3:

Use of guidance


THE APPROVED DOCUMENTS

This document is one of a series that has been
approved and issued by the Secretary of State
for the purpose of providing practical guidance
with respect to the requirements of Schedule 1
to and regulation 7 of the Building Regulations
2000 (SI 2000/2531) for England and Wales.
SI 2000/2531 has been amended by the Building
(Amendment) Regulations 2001 (SI 2001/3335),
the Building (Amendment) Regulations 2002
(SI 2002/440), the Building (Amendment) (No 2)
Regulations 2002 (SI 2002/2871), the Building
(Amendment) Regulations 2003 (SI 2003/2692),
the Building (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI
2004/1465) and the Building (Amendment) (No 3)
Regulations 2004 (SI 2004/3210) and the Building
and Approved Inspectors (Amendment)
Regulations 2006 (SI 2006/652).

At the back of this document is a list of all the
documents that have been approved and issued
by the Secretary of State for this purpose.

Approved Documents are intended to provide
guidance for some of the more common building
situations. However, there may well be alternative
ways of achieving compliance with the
requirements. Thus there is no obligation to
adopt any particular solution contained in an
Approved Document if you prefer to meet the
relevant requirement in some other way.

Does that really read like the text of actual Parliamentary legislation?

I get the distinct feeling that you have never actually read the Building Regulations, or have any idea what they look like or what they say or how they are worded.

But I repeat what I said above - if you do believe that Approved Document P is the law please show me where it says that notification is not your responsibility.

ericmark said:

Next you will say my red book is not BS7671

Click to expand...

No. But I might be telling you that your little red book called The On-Site Guide is not BS 7671.

This is the last that I have to say on the matter...

Eric, I am sorry, but you are wrong....

It is the person who is carrying out the work who is responsible for complying with the building regs, part P is part of those regs, and part of complying is notification.

So it is you who should be doing the notification, if you want to trust your customer to do this for you them more fool you, cause if they think they can save money then they will.

If you are doing work to the book anyway, why not join a scheme, it doesn't cost much in the scheme of things and it will make you more competitive. It will also allow you to do work that would otherwise be unavailable to you... (because of my membership in the NIC EIC I sub contract for a builder who does council work - I also work for a local estate, a couple of churches and I have done work for local small community action groups). So whole it costs £500 ish pa (not the scare mongering £5k) to be a member it brings in far more money than it costs.