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minor works certificates

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Useless1

from United Kingdom

Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Posts: 5
Location: Yorkshire,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:26 pm Reply with quote

Hi

I have just had some light fittings put up and a new dimmer switch. non in the kitchen or bathroom. Do we need a minor works certificate and also have much should this cost if we do need one?

Any help would be greatly received!!! icon_biggrin.gif
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ncoups

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Location: London,
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:45 pm Reply with quote

You should never have to pay for certs.
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ericmark

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:51 pm Reply with quote

All electrical work should be inspected and tested both during and on completion of the work and the person doing this needs to in writing declare what work he is responsible for. The minor works certificate is the normal way for an electrician to declare what he has done and accept responsibility for the work he has done. There should be no charge for this it should be automatic that it is issued.

But there is no law that says electricians must use that method. And the Part P document incorrectly states that following the BS7671 regulations it is not required for very small jobs.

I can understand that when an electrician just changes like for like for example replace a broken socket that it seems a little OTT to make the measurements required and to fill in a minor works and in many cases I suspect it is not done. But this leaves the electrician wide open should later anything go wrong. For example someone else playing with the system and breaking the ring main. Unless he has filled in a minor works he would have a problem in proving it do after he had done the work and not before. And as last person working on the system he would have been responsible for checking.

So it is in the electricians own interest to issue a minor works certificate then it is only a case of plugging in meter to be able to say "It was not like that when I left" unless he is the one who is making errors that is.
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securespark

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:31 pm Reply with quote

There is no requirement to test ring continuity on a MWC.
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Useless1

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Location: Yorkshire,
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:39 pm Reply with quote

Thanks v much.

The electrician is charging £20 for the certificate which is why I'm a bit unsure of whether or not to pay for it-would you advise to pay or just show the report attached to the invoice?

Whats the opinion??
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Spark123

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:12 pm Reply with quote

Did you agree to this before hand as part of the price?
The certification of any relevant work should be done as part and parcel of the sparky working to the IEE regs. You don't state the extent of the work so can't say if one is actually needed or not.
He should hand any certificates relating to the electrical installation over as soon as the work is done, it shouldn't be withheld until invoices are settled etc.
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Chri5

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:39 pm Reply with quote

Since you have just exchanged a switch for a dimmer and changed a few light fiitings There's no need for a MWC

A MWC covers minor additions, your work (appears to be) simple swaps.
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Useless1

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:00 pm Reply with quote

when he came to quote he said his charge out rate was £20 an hour plus parts. he then went on to describe the certificate and if we wanted one it would be an additional £20. We just said we'd have a think about it and let him know.

if we don't need one then that's fine but just don't want to say no for £20 if it is a important document.

Like me name, I'm useless at things like this!!!
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Useless1

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:02 pm Reply with quote

sorry the extent of the works was literally changing 4 light fittings as 2 were ikea ones where we couldn't change it and the other 2 were for ones fixed to the ceiling and replacing a dimmer switch.
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Spark123

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:42 pm Reply with quote

Basically maintenance work so no certification was required.
If you really want a cert then a MWC can be provided.
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ericmark

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:12 pm Reply with quote

securespark wrote:
There is no requirement to test ring continuity on a MWC.

Although the minor works certificate does not contain any special point where you have to say you have tested that a ring main is intact it does ask you to sign that:-
“I/We CERTIFY that the said works do not impair the safety of the existing installation, that the said works have been designed, constructed, inspected and tested in accordance with BS 7671:2008 (IEE Wiring Regulations)”.
And in BS7671:2008 it says 612.2.2 Continuity of ring final circuit conductors
A test shall be made to verify the continuity of each conductor. including the protective conductor. of every ring final circuit.
Also it states on the form:-
“The relevant provisions of Part 6 (Inspection and Testing) of BS 7671 must be applied in full to all minor works.”
Since it could be a radial circuit, it of course will not list tests that may not be required.
Since the Earth fault loop impedance is required on the form this would change quite a bit if a ring was made into a couple of radials so it would be a very quick test to see if it was wired as a ring or double radial when the original tests were made.

As to the original post although he should issued a minor works for all work in the real world it is not really required and not worth £20 or too much hassle and I will guess the guy did not want to get out all the test equipment for such a simple job.
So I would not worry about it.
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sparkyspike

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:13 pm Reply with quote

securespark wrote:
There is no requirement to test ring continuity on a MWC.


According to whom? Is the ring continuity box optional?
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ericmark

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:43 pm Reply with quote

sparkyspike wrote:
securespark wrote:
There is no requirement to test ring continuity on a MWC.


According to whom? Is the ring continuity box optional?


There is no ring continuity box on the minor works form issued by the IET either in the big red book or on down loadable forms although some other people may include a tick box.

But as I have already said I would consider it as gross industrial misconduct if any spark under me had fitted a new socket without checking fuse size and if it was ring or radial in if it was a ring checking all cables still were connected as a ring before connecting in a new socket.

This is the whole reason I don't like the DIY man fitting extra sockets and I like the idea of radials as the untrained is less likely to make mistakes which could cause a fire.

But this was a lighting circuit so it does not really have anything to do with the question.

I think the electrician is daft not issuing a minor works as it also protects him. But I would not think any DIY'er will fill them in and when the house changes hands it needs a full PIR anyway so where's the problem?
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sparkyspike

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:09 pm Reply with quote

The MWCs I've always used have, in addition to the IET Appendix 6 versions:

Reference method, number of points, csa, scc, r1, rn, r2, r1+r2.

I find these boxes are a useful checklist but, tbh, I didn't realise the IET model was so simple!
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ericmark

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:31 pm Reply with quote

Yes I agree they do seem to miss a lot out. But you must remember they are for all branches of the trade and in industry really they have too much info on them.

Coming from a fuse board in middle of a factory how do I know if it's TT TN-S or TN-C-S and why do I need to know. If I have a ELI reading which is OK for the addition I am fitting why should I need to know how the power comes in two buildings away?

One size does not fit all.

And it has only got one Line/neutral box what about other two phases?
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