A bit worried. Ceiling caving in ?

Estrella · 31 Mar 2009

Without boring you a little history first, although I have no idea whether any of this relevant.

The house is over 100 years old and we have lived here for 2.5 years. The house is stone/brick semi cottage with no cavity in the walls. The house had some subsidence about 13 years ago and was underpinned.

The problem.
When we bought the house the upstairs ceiling had a noticeable sag and when we questioned the vendor she was vague other than saying that it had been like that for as long as she could remember. She did make noises that it had been like that since the roof had been re-slated. When we bought the house we had a full survey which made no mention of the ceiling or roof.

What is concerning me is that the bulge/sag is now approx 8 inches deep. I don't know whether it's paranoia or not but it seems to be sagging more now than it did when we moved in.

The first pic shows (I hope) the sag. If you look at the smoke detector on the left you can see what an odd angle it is at. The low point is where the light is. There is also a crack in the back right of the pic that has definitely opened up slightly, maybe 5mm or so.

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And finally the loft area. Note the supports which appear to be holding the ceiling up!

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Is it likely to collapse ? I've got three kids and having the ceiling collapse on them obviously worries me!

stuart45 · 31 Mar 2009

It's quite hard to see a ceiling bulge exactly on a photo, but 8 inches is a fair amount. The lathes could be breaking away from the joists, or the plaster could be coming away from the lathes. If you go into the loft and move some of the insulation you should be able to see what is happening. Either way I would get it sorted as it will only get worse.

str · 31 Mar 2009

we've had to replace a couple of ceilings in our house - old lath and plaster - due to sagging, albeit not as much as 8 inches

just down to age and the plaster debonding from the lath.

Its not a massive job to rip down the open and put up new plaster board - although I did leave the replastering to a professional - very, very dirty job though - if you do it, be prepared for the mess

Estrella · 31 Mar 2009

Thanks Guys.

I hear what you are saying about the lath and plaster coming away from the ceiling joists , but I am worried that the ceiling joists themselves are dropping with the lath and plaster still attached!!

Hopefully these pics will help

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mattylad · 31 Mar 2009

can you put a length of wood across those roof joists to show it they too are sagging as much?
That might show if it's the plaster or the ceiling joists.

Either way, it does look like you need to seal the room & pull the lot down, repair & replace. The last thing you need it it all to fall on you, your family or guests suddenly.

str · 31 Mar 2009

the ceiling was this bad when you bought the house and your surveyor didn't pick it up - there should have been recourse there as its obviously not right.

easy enough to replace the ceiling joists if these are out of level - have you stood on them when i the attic? do they move? Whilst the repair should be relatively straightforward, there must be a cause - could be someone previously removed supports to the ceiling joists and the weight of the plaster has mean they have sagged?

is there any other cracking on externals walls, etc - anythign obvious?

JohnD · 31 Mar 2009

looks odd to me that the timbers run the long way, not the short way between walls.

It does not look to me like it is sagging laths (there is a way to fix these if you have a very old house, but if you do not have fancy moulded ceilings I don't think it's worth the effort)

Estrella · 31 Mar 2009

Thanks again fellas.

I am getting more concerned now, as I am pretty convinced that the laths are not pulling away from the ceiling joists, but the joists have dropped and are taking the laths etc with them!

have you stood on them when i the attic? do they move?

Yup, lots of times and they are fine. I am 15 1/2 stone, so I am guessing they are not about to collapse

looks odd to me that the timbers run the long way, not the short way between walls.

What you can't see in the pic is that there are two large loft areas to the left and right which are not shown in the pics. If the joists ran left to right in these areas is would probably be similar or longer length.

Whilst the repair should be relatively straightforward, there must be a cause

Exactly, and that's what I am desperate to find out. I just wish I knew why.

could be someone previously removed supports to the ceiling joists and the weight of the plaster has mean they have sagged?

Other than the two naff supports from roof truss to ceiling joist, they are the only supports. Should there be more ?

is there any other cracking on externals walls, etc - anythign obvious?

I have a couple of hairline cracks in external plaster walls on the inside, but nothing near the sagging. I can't think of anything else to be honest

roughcaster · 31 Mar 2009

I was thinking along the same line as JohnD, and the extreme length of the span. Looking at the picture taken up in the loftspace, i think you can rule out that the plaster is coming away from the lath. I still think that the joists are a big part of the problem, they look, (in the pic) inadequate for the job, even though they have been there for years. Maybe other supports have been removed in the past. Even with the weight of all the old plaster being removed from the ceiling, i think there would still be a fair old sag in the joists themselves.

Roughcaster..

Estrella · 31 Mar 2009

roughcaster said:
I was thinking along the same line as JohnD, and the extreme length of the span. Looking at the picture taken up in the loftspace, i think you can rule out that the plaster is coming away from the lath. I still think that the joists are a big part of the problem, they look, (in the pic) inadequate for the job, even though they have been there for years. Maybe other supports have been removed in the past. Even with the weight of all the old plaster being removed from the ceiling, i think there would still be a fair old sag in the joists themselves.

Roughcaster..

Thanks RC, that all sounds very logical.

Unfortunatly the tighta$$ in me has come shooting to the surface. Is it feasible for me to put truss to joist supports to stop further movement?

Things are a bit of squeeze at the moment , so stopping it falling in or getting worse would be a satisfactory solution in the short term.

mattylad · 31 Mar 2009

Could there have been an internal wall that has been removed before you got the house?

Does look like a rip it down & redo it all job.

joe-90 · 31 Mar 2009

Only a long term roof leak could have caused that.

I think it unlikely you'll fix it, but if I had a go I'd do this.

In the loft where you have your boards you insert a joist bearer (a thick chunky type of purlin that lays across the joists set into each wall). You then drill a hole down through the bearer, down through the joist into the room below.

You get some 12mm threaded rod a fasten a large repair washer on the end with a nut. Feed the other end up through the hole you've drilled and put a repair washer and nut on the top side. Use a ring spanner to tighten each nut from above (you do the same for all the joists) and tighten them sequentially. If you are lucky the gearing on the threaded rod and the leverage of the spanner might force the sagging joist back up to the joist bearer. If nothing else it would take any future load.

Estrella · 31 Mar 2009

Thanks Matty / Joe ,

No, there certainly wasn't an internal wall removed.

Joe, Thanks for the info, but when funds allow I will rip the lot out and start again.

As a quick cheap fix only to stop it going any further I was thinking of running some mild steel flat bar down to the joists and bolt to the support beam currently in situ. The only snag i could see is that I would have to drill the ceiling joist from the side and bolt through it (See awful piccy below). This would mean that I wouldn't have exposed nuts/washers on the ceiling below.

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noseall · 31 Mar 2009

The reason the joists go that way, you muppets, is because the joists are used as restraint for the rafters, i.e. triangulation. It's how you build a roof.

As Joe said, a 6" x 3" or 7" x 2" ceiling binder between the walls and above the joists will help stiffen the joists and prevent any more sag.

A couple of fixings down into each joists through the binder will be enough.

Estrella · 31 Mar 2009

joe-90 said:
Only a long term roof leak could have caused that.

Sorry I missed that from your previous post.

You really think there was a major leak or something? There is no heating/water pipes up there, so if you are adamant about water being the cause it must have been a leaky roof of epic proportions

Noseall, thanks for that. i'll get on it

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A bit worried. Ceiling caving in ?

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