Regulations on lighting circuits without earths?

sploo · 5 Mar 2010

I'm planning on getting the old fuseboard in my house (late 1960s semi) replaced with a consumer unit.

I've noticed that the lighting circuit in the house doesn't have an earth (it's red and black wires in grey sheathed cable).

Assuming the wiring is fundamentally sound, would the new regs require the lighting circuit to be replaced in order for it to be earthed?

If it is the case, is there anything I can do to prevent a moderate job becoming an eye-wateringly expensive one?

flyingsparks · 5 Mar 2010

Providing the insulation all test's ok, then you can get away with leaving the old cable in. HOWEVER, all light fittings need to be class 2 (no earth required) and switch back boxes should be plastic or if metal, nylon screws used to hold the face plate on. If you were to want class 1 fittings, then a seperate earth would need to be run to pick these up, if you didnt want to re-wire the circuit. Hope this helps.

ban-all-sheds · 5 Mar 2010

http://esc.org.uk/pdfs/business-and-community/electrical-industry/BPG1_08.pdf
http://esc.org.uk/pdfs/business-and-community/electrical-industry/BPG6_09.pdf[/list]
IMO you'd be mad not to have the lighting circuit sorted.

sploo · 5 Mar 2010

That helps a lot - thanks.

I have some newer light switches where the switch is a metal plate (that screws into the back box... well... the back box is a wooden chamber in the wall on most) and there's a metal face plate that clicks over the top (hiding the screws).

Therefore, there's a metal contact between the switch into which the wiring is attached and the metal surfaces that could be touched by a user. I guess that might be a problem.

The other light switches in the house are all plastic (though with metal screws).

A separate earth would probably be fiddly to wire I suppose, so class 2 fittings may be the only answer.

Cheers!

ban-all-sheds · 5 Mar 2010

sploo said:
the back box is a wooden chamber in the wall on most)

Oh dear.

Therefore, there's a metal contact between the switch into which the wiring is attached and the metal surfaces that could be touched by a user. I guess that might be a problem.

Yes.

A separate earth would probably be fiddly to wire I suppose, so class 2 fittings may be the only answer.

Or rewiring the lighting circuit.

sploo · 5 Mar 2010

ban-all-sheds - many thanks for the links - very useful.

Yea, you're right. It's crazy having light fittings and switches that aren't earthed. The problem is that when you've already decorated most of the rooms in a house, have just dropped several grand on bits for a new bathroom, and (to the best of my knowledge) no one's died from a lightswitch related incident in the 40 year life of the house, you're somewhat put off by the potentially eye-watering cost of a rewire and subsequent clean up.

Of course, if the cost of installing lots of class 2 fittings was massively high then I might be up excrement creek cost wise anyway...

ban-all-sheds · 5 Mar 2010

I wouldn't have died or been injured in a road accident if I hadn't worn seatbelts for the last 30+ years, but I won't stop wearing one because of that.

sploo · 5 Mar 2010

Yea, but it doesn't cost several grand to put your seatbelt on

Being serious - I am mulling over the practicalities of a lighting rewire. Am I correct in thinking that if I were to replace all the current lines with suitably rated modern twin and earth cable, and connect up all the switches and pendants as before (though probably replacing some old pendants and switches with new class 1 parts) then I should be able to get that tested and signed off by a Part P registered sparky? Obviously I'd be ensuring the earths were connected together/to the switches/pendants as appropriate.

I suspect I'd need to tear the house up (channels in walls, lifting floors etc) but it's nothing I've not done in the past - and I guess that's why a rewire is expensive if you pay someone to do it.

The problem is, I'm wanting the consumer unit so that I can get a 45amp line for an electric shower for a bathroom renovation (planned for the next few weeks). I suspect I won't be able to get the CU+45amp line done, do the bathroom, then sort the lighting circuit - as I won't be allowed to have the new CU unit installed until the lighting circuit is changed

.

BTW If I read some of the regs right, am I correct that lighting circuits installed after 1966 should have been earthed? I'm pretty sure my place was built in '69!

JohnnyG · 5 Mar 2010

sploo said:
Being serious - I am mulling over the practicalities of a lighting rewire. Am I correct in thinking that if I were to replace all the current lines with suitably rated modern twin and earth cable, and connect up all the switches and pendants as before (though probably replacing some old pendants and switches with new class 1 parts) then I should be able to get that tested and signed off by a Part P registered sparky?

That's not how it works I'm afraid, not properly anyway.
No 'decent' registered person will sign off your installation (they're allowed to more importantly) and if you want to do it yourself you'll need to inform your local building control prior to the work starting who will want to see it at various stages of completion and charge you for it.
You're far better off just getting a registered sparks to do the lot.

sploo · 5 Mar 2010

Jeez. I'm basically over a barrel then.

Very, very frustrated about that. I understand the regs are there stop idiots doing daft things, but this just seems to make it almost impossible for any normal person to carry out work on their own homes - at least not without being bled dry via their wallet.

I'd say it sounds like no one really thought these new regs through properly, but alas I suspect they were thought through well - specifically the amount of money to be made...

JohnnyG · 5 Mar 2010

If you're confident you can do the job correctly & safely it may be worth having a word with your BC to see what they charge as it apparently can vary considerably.

bongos · 5 Mar 2010

sploo said:
Jeez. I'm basically over a barrel then.

Very, very frustrated about that. I understand the regs are there stop idiots doing daft things, but this just seems to make it almost impossible for any normal person to carry out work on their own homes - at least not without being bled dry via their wallet.

I'd say it sounds like no one really thought these new regs through properly, but alas I suspect they were thought through well - specifically the amount of money to be made...

Sploo, have a look here for info on what you can and can't do without notifying.

Whether rewiring sections of the lighting circuit because the earth is missing really constitutes replacing a damaged cable or adding new fixed cabling...

Irrespective of this though, it is a very bad idea to rewire your lighting circuit without the necessary knowledge required to complete a safe installation, let alone the test equipment required.

dingbat · 5 Mar 2010

sploo said:
Very, very frustrated about that. I understand the regs are there stop idiots doing daft things, but this just seems to make it almost impossible for any normal person to carry out work on their own homes - at least not without being bled dry via their wallet.

I don't think most householders believe they could safely carry out gas installations, or major structural work on their properties. They wouldn't think twice about calling in an expert for these jobs.

When it comes to electrical installations, though, everybody seems to think it's just a matter of joining up a few bits of wire and there you go.

But thousands of fires are caused every year by people - many in the various trades - who believed just that. In particular it is people wanting cosmetic alterations, who are unwilling to spend anything on fixing the infrastructure first, that drive this ridiculous approach.

If a structural engineer told you your house needed underpinning you would, surely, not go ahead with major refurbishment until you'd ensured the place would remain habitable?

Yet, when an electrician tells a householder it will take a couple of grand to ensure the electrical installation is safe for maybe fifty years to come, most opt to 'invest' that money in the new bathroom... which they will then want to change, five years down the line when fashion dictates.

It's very hard, as a professional, to have any sympathy for those with a 'bling' first mentality.

Sploo. If you're competent to do the job - that's competent, not just 'reckon you can handle it' - then go ahead and do it legally via the building control route... exactly the same as if you wanted to carry out any other controlled work.

Paul_C · 5 Mar 2010

sploo said:
this just seems to make it almost impossible for any normal person to carry out work on their own homes - at least not without being bled dry via their wallet.

Yep.

BTW If I read some of the regs right, am I correct that lighting circuits installed after 1966 should have been earthed?

If the install was being done to the IEE Wiring Regulations in force at the time, then yes, the 14th edition which came into effect in 1966 specified that an earth be run to every lighting point and switch.

However, even before then the 13th edition Regs. still required earths to be provided sometimes. The exemption was for:

Lighting fittings using filament lamps installed in a room having a non-conducting floor, mounted at such a height that they cannot readily be touched and are out of reach of earthed metal.

So a metal wall light within easy reach needed to be earthed, as did a fluorescent light in a kitchen, for example. And metal switches also needed to be earthed.

mikhailfaradayski · 5 Mar 2010

sploo said:
ban-all-sheds - many thanks for the links - very useful.

Yea, you're right. It's crazy having light fittings and switches that aren't earthed.

yip

The problem is that when you've already decorated most of the rooms in a house, have just dropped several grand on bits for a new bathroom, and (to the best of my knowledge) no one's died from a lightswitch related incident in the 40 year life of the house,

not a great way to assess safety. In fact, probably one of the worst ways

you're somewhat put off by the potentially eye-watering cost of a rewire and subsequent clean up.

Of course, if the cost of installing lots of class 2 fittings was massively high then I might be up excrement creek cost wise anyway...

If I'd just done 2 large on a bathroom, i think I'd want the freedom to choose whatever light fitting i wanted in there (hmmmmmmm, downlights

) not be restricted 'cos i didn't sort the lighting feed out ( which, it seems, is already 40+ years old )

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Regulations on lighting circuits without earths?

Paul_C

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