Additional downstairs lights to upstairs circuit?

Hi all,
1st post here, and with the project i have in mind i'm sure it won't be the last (although it should be the last electrical one! - it's a once but big post) Appreciate your time!

I'm about to knock 2 rooms into one to make a larger kitchen downstairs (i will be notifying) However, my downstairs lighting circuit is already getting close to the 1200w.... so some questions..

1/ can i (labeled properly) connect new ceiling lights (will probably be cable lights) to the upstairs lighting circuit legally. If so is it ok to go straight to the box for feed (this will be much easier.)

2/ would it be acceptable to take feed from the downstairs ring main for cabinet lights/pelmet lights/plinth lights (properly labeled) (i'd rather go to the upstairs/downstairs lighting feed but the wattage may then be close on both circuits.

Oh.. i'd love to put a new circuit in but the box is full (garage etc etc), Although one option 'could' be that i have a trip going just to the boiler room that feeds just the boiler socket - could i move this to combine it with the garage trip thus freeing up a slot for a new kitchen lighting circuit?

3/ and finally is it acceptable to run the cooker hood and a couple of halogens from the cooker feed (i will check rating)? The cooker will be going in the fireplace so this would be MUCH easier if i could.

Any thoughts on the best option (my best would be to combine the boiler room with the garage and free a slot)

Many Thanks
J

..

jeremyR said:

1/ can i (labeled properly) connect new ceiling lights (will probably be cable lights) to the upstairs lighting circuit legally. If so is it ok to go straight to the box for feed (this will be much easier.)

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Yes. Make sure it is labelled as appropriate.

jeremyR said:

2/ would it be acceptable to take feed from the downstairs ring main for cabinet lights/pelmet lights/plinth lights (properly labeled) (i'd rather go to the upstairs/downstairs lighting feed but the wattage may then be close on both circuits.

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Yes. Make sure you fuse down for the lighting circuit if you take the supply from the ring final circuit.

jeremyR said:

Oh.. i'd love to put a new circuit in but the box is full (garage etc etc), Although one option 'could' be that i have a trip going just to the boiler room that feeds just the boiler socket - could i move this to combine it with the garage trip thus freeing up a slot for a new kitchen lighting circuit?

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If the boiler has it's own MCB then this is likely to be 6A. If you move the boiler supply to the garage MCB (what size is it?) then it is likely to be too high a rating to safely protect the cable for the boiler. What size cable is the boiler circuit wired in? 1.5mm² t+e?

jeremyR said:

3/ and finally is it acceptable to run the cooker hood and a couple of halogens from the cooker feed (i will check rating)? The cooker will be going in the fireplace so this would be MUCH easier if i could.

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Unfortunately you may find that your cooker circuit is at or already near it's limit. Even with diversity being applied I don't really think this would be the best way to go about it.

jeremyR said:

Any thoughts on the best option (my best would be to combine the boiler room with the garage and free a slot)

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If your CU has run out out of spare ways then the best option would be to get it replaced with a larger one. Although some of your above suggestions can be done its not really the best way and is a bit of a bodge IMHO. With a new CU extra circuits could be run as appropriate and you would have greater capacity for the future. It sounds like you could already do with an extra lighting circuit if you are on the limit. Have a look here for info on Part P and what you can and can't do without notifying.

It may be a good idea to consult an electrician and discuss with them if you can do as much of the work as possible. But if you do this then you will need to speak to an electrician before you start work and they will have to be happy that any work you do is up to their standard as it will be them signing it off.

In any event, the new work that you do will need to comply with 17th edition regs and this will mean an RCD on any circuits that you work on.

That will propbably mean a change to your consumer unit. What type is the old one. Can we see a pic/have a laugh

Hi Bongus,
Thanks for the detailed reply -

The bolier MCB is 16A and the cable is 2.5 T+E on a radial circuit. (It serves 2 x double sockets with one plug serving the bolier)
The garage MCB is 32A

On the cooker i'll need to run a new cable in any case - it's a 32A MCB and for future upgrades i'll probably put 10mm cable in. The cooker i'm planning to put will have a gas hob (no i won't be doing that myself) so the draw will only be the ovens - about 11KW - will i now be able to do the hood/couple of lights..?

Thanks.
J

Taylor - try and post pic later - off to the pre-school run now!

View media item 21160
1st pic upload so hope it works....

FFS thats dreadful. Get it changed. You appear to have no RCD protection and that mix of breakers is asking for trouble! Its fugly. I dread to think what it looks like inside. (PICTURE!!!!)

Is that a C10 on your downstairs lights??? I'd never expect a C10 on domestics. C6 maybe. Standard is B6.

There are two different considerations legal and regulations. The law does not say you need to comply with regulations and going through the LABC an electrician could in theory install a system that did not comply with current regulations. However any electrician who can self certify under Part P has to follow regulations as the rules of the umbrella organisation who licence him to self certify will require it.
To go through the LABC will also be really hard if you don’t comply with BS7671:2008. Although they only have to ensure it is safe most inspectors will only consider it to be safe if you comply with BS7671:2008 and unless you hold some impressive qualifications I would not fancy your chances on persuading them to pass anything not to BS7671:2008.

This means you have really no option but to have your consumer unit changed. Rules on buried cables and sockets under 20A having RCD protection would mean only other option would involve RCD’s being dotted around the house where any changes are made and/or Ali-tube cable everywhere which seems to only be sold by the role. And likely with the amount of work you are listing this would cost more than CU change.

Personally I am surprised at the LABC not asking for a detailed plan when you applied to do the work and I think it is really wrong of them not to detail what they want to see for a completion certificate to be issued. I wonder if they realise you are intending to DIY electrics. A consumer unit change is not a DIY job. Although the Part P does allow one to DIY with LABC inspection in real terms that is to allow an industrial electrician like me to do odd job on domestic and not really for true DIY.
The test meters will cost around £750 to buy never tried to hire. Although in theory the LABC can test FOC that’s only for there insurance and no installation certificate will be issued by LABC only a completion certificate and there seems to be some reluctance on the behalf of LABC to issue a completion cert without a installation cert.

My advice is to employ a registered electrician to do all work needing Part P completion certificates issuing. Even with all my qualifications the LABC route was not easy.

As a PS although the BS7671:2008 says 16A max on lighting circuits it also says you must follow manufacturers instructions and most rate the ceiling rose at 5/6A so in real terms 6A is max for lighting circuit and with the use of energy saving lights that is ample.

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As requested photo of the internal. Yes it is a c10 - advised by electrician after install and before he issued cert for works to install as i have 3x(5x35w) dimmed halogen cable lights that tripped the B6 if swithced on all at the same time.

bloddy kids party now so will check back later - thanks to all repsonces

J

jeremyR said:

Yes it is a c10 - advised by electrician after install and before he issued cert for works to install as i have 3x(5x35w) dimmed halogen cable lights that tripped the B6 if swithced on all at the same time

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Didnt he have any C6's (of any brand??)

Thanks all for input...

Steve - didn't ask him and i never thought of it - now you mention it i'll change it - but sounds like i'll be getting the whole lot changed so.....

ericmark - just at the planning stage now so not notified the council yet.. Suprised to hear that all new work has to be RCD protected (even on non RCD CU's) - not read that before and that's obviously a bitch! - So far have just asked council to come and have a look (as well as look at a few other potential builing reg jobs) but they won't - dissapointing as i know other councils do....
I think i'll have to try again to get the council in as i have also read that selling the house may be an issue without a completion cert and that an electricians install cert may not be enough???????

Also - as i understand it as all the work is in the proposed new (2 rooms into 1) kitchen it will all be Part P. There is a huge amount of work and getting an electrician in to do the lot is not an option (i reckon a full week's worth of work)

J

Hi ericmark,

Have now read up on the new regs...... now getting very reisgned to a new cu...

Does anyone have any thoughts on the chances of getting an electrician in to change the cu and come back later to certify the work i have done..?

Also - with the new regs about buried cable and RCD, please tell me that this only applies to newly installed cable MUST be RCD protected!?

J

jeremyR said:

Have now read up on the new regs...... now getting very reisgned to a new cu...

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Having seen those pics a new CU would definitely be advisable and as RCD protection would be required on all new work anyway it would be better to replace the whole CU with the extra capacity you require.

jeremyR said:

Does anyone have any thoughts on the chances of getting an electrician in to change the cu and come back later to certify the work i have done..?

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I covered that bit at in my first post.

An electrician can only sign off work that they have completed. If you speak to an electrician and they are happy to sign of your work then you will need to agree the cable routes/circuit specifications with them before doing any of the work. They will not and cannot sign off work that they have not done. So if you complete the work yourself and decorate and then ring them up to certify the work they will refuse as they are not able to see the installation (if you find a spark that would do this for you then you should run away anyway!)

jeremyR said:

Also - with the new regs about buried cable and RCD, please tell me that this only applies to newly installed cable MUST be RCD protected!?

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The regs are not retrospective. However, a new CU will have to comply with the 17th edition and so will most likely result in you having dual RCD's or several RCBO's in a new CU. It is most likely that all your circuits will be RCD protected. You sound concerned by this? It shouldn't be a problem as long as circuits are split between the RCD's appropriately.

Any new electrical circuits installed now would have to be protected by an RCD or meet one of the requirements specified to avoid using RCD's. Generally it's easier to use an RCD...

Most of questions have already been answered so just one point. There is cable referred to as ali tube which complies with BS 8436 Guardian, Earthshield, Flexishield, or Afumex and by using this type of cable you can get away without RCD protection for cables and if a socket is marked for the use of a single appliance you can have a socket without RCD protection. For example to supply the freezer.

However to date the only way to buy ali-tube cable is by the role and as a result it is expensive. There are other cables like steel wired armoured which can also be buried in a wall at less than 50mm without RCD protection but not really practicable.

On my parents kitchen the idea is to use a sub-main as house needs re-wiring but that is not covered by grant. Using a sub-main will mean a consumer unit in the kitchen which will be placed so my mother in her wheel chair can reach it. This means the need for cooker, and oven isolators is removed as they can be isolated local with CU. This approach in finding a way to do the job rather than reasons why it can't be done is really why a good electrician is required. The BS 7671:2008 book is quite a lot of reading and sometimes even electricians argue on the wording. The singular and plural use has caused many a debate. Since you can't sign off the work yourself you have to design the system and get the design passed before you start. Only that way can you ensure the inspector will pass the finished work.

So in your position I would get an electrician to change consumer unit and ask him if he will run through the design likely you will need to grease his palm. Coffee works well but you may need to offer to pay him time to design.