to power flush or not to power flush

smokey5877 · 4 Jul 2010

I've read some of the other entries on here about power flush but would love some advice.

I'm replacing my grants combi 90 and a couple of the rads are sludged and the system needs a good cleaning out I think.

A couple of plumbers have suggested power flushing and a couple haven't.

I'm looking to replace 3 of the 8 rads in the house including the most obviously sludged.

My preferred plumber said he'd flush through the system I believe with an agent but not power flush.

should I insist on the power flush?

Thanks in advance.

Michael.

simond · 4 Jul 2010

Firstly, if you get 4 quotes you are driving up the cost of everybody's boiler installation, including yours.

Quotes aren't 'free', they take time and just like you, we have to earn a living. I guess most desk job staff would be horrified if they were expected to bid for their work every three days, pitched up against 3 colleagues each time. Yes, that's right, statistically you would only get paid 1 in 4 times. That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

And before you say, 'well, you make your money when you do the job', that is exactly my point - we have to charge a rate that amortises the wasted time on jobs like yours. So everybody pays as bit more because of your actions.

To get to your question, if you have a system known to be affected by sludge, it will be everywhere. No one but a cowboy would suggest the route taken by your favourite plumber. He is a chancer and I'm willing to guess he is a cheap chancer. Best of luck mate.

Whitespirit66 · 4 Jul 2010

simond said:
Firstly, if you get 4 quotes you are driving up the cost of everybody's boiler installation, including yours.

Quotes aren't 'free', they take time and just like you, we have to earn a living. I guess most desk job staff would be horrified if they were expected to bid for their work every three days, pitched up against 3 colleagues each time. Yes, that's right, statistically you would only get paid 1 in 4 times. That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

And before you say, 'well, you make your money when you do the job', that is exactly my point - we have to charge a rate that amortises the wasted time on jobs like yours. So everybody pays as bit more because of your actions.

To get to your question, if you have a system known to be affected by sludge, it will be everywhere. No one but a cowboy would suggest the route taken by your favourite plumber. He is a chancer and I'm willing to guess he is a cheap chancer. Best of luck mate.

Don't get me wrong Simond, I agree with every word of your post.

Had to check it wasn't written by Agile though.

ianniann · 4 Jul 2010

Nice rant, but as you can see, at least 50% of the quotes were from idiots. I'd get more until you have at least three sensible ones to compare

mysteryman · 4 Jul 2010

Do youreself a favour and get it powerflushed - which it obviously needs.

Agile · 4 Jul 2010

Its not a question of does it need power flushing, its a question of needing to be clean! Power flushing is just one method and to be effective it has to be done properly and with the right chemicals.

Other methods can also be very effective if done properly too.

Its not an option of to power flush or not. There is no option, it has to be clean! How its cleaned is up to the installer.

The thing to watch out for is the installer who says do you want it powerflushed ( for £xxx extra ), as if you refuse, he will then take no responsibility for problems caused by dirt in the system.

The requirement is to have it clean so you should aim for an installation price which includes whatever cleaning the installer deems necessary but gives a full guarantee for at least two years against any problems caused by dirt in the system.

There are plenty of power flush cowboys who connect the pump ( without chemicals ) and sit reading the newspaper for two hours.

Proper power flushing is very energetic as each rad has to be flushed seperately, reversing the flow several times, so there is no time to read newspapers. Depending on how bad the sludge is, power flushing takes about 3-5 hours.

I went to someone last week who thought that his system water was black. I checked it and it was fine. He was fooled by a little black with the first few drops from the bleed nipple. He thought that I was a genius but in reality I was just honest and not pretending that it was bad to give myself another job. I have never mastered this sucking air through the teeth!

Tony

mysteryman · 4 Jul 2010

... and get it done properly.

namsag · 5 Jul 2010

Totally agree with Agile it is all about leaving the system clean which is achievable without powerflushing.
And just because the guy doesnt want to add hundreds extra for a powerflush does not mean he is not doing it right.

simond · 5 Jul 2010

In 8 years of fitting a fair few thousand boilers I have powerflushed wherever possible.

I get extended warranties from our preferred manufacturers, but if they found incidents of dirt on our systems causing reliability issues, that privilege, I am sure, would be taken away from me.

Although occasionally a warranty tech has blamed sludge for an issue, we turn up and invariably there is none. I have this confidence because I know it has been done.

Sure, in some cases powerflushing proves to be unnecessary because the system is clean enough already. But it is the best form of insurance with a replacement boiler.

The only true alternative to powerflushing is to remove each and every radiator, and this certainly isn't a cheaper option. Frightening in a house with white shag pile carpets.

Most of the vociferous opponents to powerflushing haven't got a machine, either out of spite or because they'd rather spend the money in the pub.

namsag · 5 Jul 2010

So you say powerflushing turns out to have not been necessary because system was clean . Obviously you have charged the customer for this.
So do you not refund them the money for your mistake .

If a system was fitted properly in the first place and inhibited there should be no need for a powerflush,
Have taken rads off i fitted nearly 30 years ago and there has been no sludge in them at all.

Perhaps the most vociferous advocates of powerflushing are just trying to squeeze as much out of the customer as they can.

And yes i do have a machine do i think it is a cash cow no its a tool that gets used when REQUIRED and not just as a cash machine.

simond · 5 Jul 2010

I don't see it as a cash machine.

I do boiler changes, domestic and commercial, and service/repair boilers I've put in. I don't work on boilers we haven't installed, and I don't offer powerflushing to non boiler replacement customers, even in a recession.

So the powerflush is a cost, rather than a cash generator, to me.

I think I'm doing the right thing, doing the job properly. At the quotation stage it is very difficult to know the level of contamination in a system without removing a rad - and of course, that isn't in any way practical at the quote stage. So I err on the safe side, for both the customer's benefit, and mine.

Experience has shown that approach to be correct. I've invested in 3 Norstrom machines, each costing over £1K with heater inbuilt, not the £500 Kamco ones.

Perhaps you have a different experience.

What I can say with absolute surety is, I could earn more money in the short term if I didn't powerflush every job.

Agile · 5 Jul 2010

I do have to say that I see those who quote to install a boiler and show an additional optional amount for power flushing as engaging in sharp practice.

The truth is that the quote should include cleaning properly by whatever means is necessary.

It is NOT a genuine professional quote if it covers fitting a boiler without cleaning the system just because the owner chose not to take the "optional" power flush. No professional would ever fit a boiler to a dirty system because he knows that problems will be bound to arise later.

In my case, I quote a fixed price to install a boiler, in most cases without having inspected the system. I then do whatever is necessary to clean it and that does include power flushing if its required but if not then I dont and use chemical cleaning in various degrees accoding to what is necessary.

Customers rarely are able to quantify the amount of dirt in their system to the extent that the installer knows what treatment is necessary.

Some of the worst cowboys dont clean the system at all and persuade the customer to pay another £120 to fit a Magnaclean but then dont bother to establish any procedure for cleaning it.

Tony

mickyg · 5 Jul 2010

I'm with Simon on this one, not that I've got anything against those who identify where possible and don't do it. I just find that if the system is clean then the pflush only takes a few hours so no big deal. I probably overall lose out of it, as I tend to be marginally more expensive or around about the same price as people I quote against, but often spend a whole day powerflushing which others wouldn't. Its not to make money, but to be 100% confident everytime that I'm walking away from a clean system. Much like Simon has said, you probably lose more out of it than you gain, its just peace of mind.
I will carry out powerflushing as a stand alone job but in the last 6 months I've been out to only about 6 systems where it was requested and only ended up doing 1. The other 5 didn't need it, and were just misinformed by idiots.

smokey5877 · 5 Jul 2010

simond said:
Firstly, if you get 4 quotes you are driving up the cost of everybody's boiler installation, including yours.

Quotes aren't 'free', they take time and just like you, we have to earn a living. I guess most desk job staff would be horrified if they were expected to bid for their work every three days, pitched up against 3 colleagues each time. Yes, that's right, statistically you would only get paid 1 in 4 times. That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

And before you say, 'well, you make your money when you do the job', that is exactly my point - we have to charge a rate that amortises the wasted time on jobs like yours. So everybody pays as bit more because of your actions.

To get to your question, if you have a system known to be affected by sludge, it will be everywhere. No one but a cowboy would suggest the route taken by your favourite plumber. He is a chancer and I'm willing to guess he is a cheap chancer. Best of luck mate.

Thanks Simon, and all for your comments.

I appreciate your comments about pricing.

For everyone's interest - some background on the sorry tale:

1 - As it happens my time is also valuable, I go to work over an hour away and taking time off to meet a plumber at home isn't easy.

2 - one plumber said he couldn't do it because he was putting a roof on his house (why did he waste my time?)

3 - a second plumber decided he didn't want to do a fit as he was giving up OFTEC to concentrate on gas (why did he waste my time?)

4 - a third plumber said we needed to mole out the mains supply as the water pressure is a bit low, but I live on top of a hill and the water pressure is expectedly low.

5 - another plumber came around and said he would quote me. He preferred Bosch which was fine with me (Grants have treated me really badly and would use another supplier made a decent unit). No quote, so called several times, , BT message - phone no longer in use - summise no longer in business.

As it happens I talked to a builder mate today who suggested as we were already replacing 3 rads, why not replace another 4 (leaving just the bathroom towell rail one) for more or less the same price as a powerflush.

Does that sound like a sensible option? Its a combi so there is no tank. presumably there shouldn't be much cr4p left in there after that?

Alas - cream colour carpets are now further at risk.

Ta

Michael.

mysteryman · 5 Jul 2010

You still need to ensure that the remaining pipework is clean - this is what matters.

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to power flush or not to power flush

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