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Dual Fuel Cooker Electrics, Help!!

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Twin303

from United Kingdom

Joined: 11 Nov 2010
Posts: 8
Location: West Midlands,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:54 pm Reply with quote

Hello,

I am sure this has been answered many times, but unfortunately not simply enough for a non DIY'er like me.

I recently purchased a Duel fuel cooker from John Lewis and paid for installation. I am concerned that we do not have the correct wiring in the house for a simple install.

The current cooker is all gas and just connected to the mains for the spark and lights. Looking on these forums I think we may have everything we need for a DF cooker but as I said I am not sure.

There does appear to be a separate circuit for the cooker on the consumer unit and a cooker control unit on the wall. There is no terminal outlet box just a normal 3 pin socket behind the cooker just below the cooker control unit.

Here is the tech data from the manual

TECHNICAL DATA
Gas connection Rp 1⁄2 (1⁄2" BSP female) Pressure test point Front left hotplate injector Gas rate adjustment None Aeration adjustment None
Electrical connection 4mm2 twin and earth 230/240V a.c. 50Hz.
13A fuse.

I will upload images of the current setup.

Any help with this would be amazing, I don't want to spend money on a John Lewis installation if they will not complete it.

Many thanks in advance,

Alan Turner

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riveralt

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:28 pm Reply with quote

What is the electrical power rating of the oven/cooker?

Do you know the size of the cable on the circuit?

It is a 32 Amp MCB so I would guess it should 6mm.

If the socket has been connected to the cooker switch by 6mm and the circuit itself is 6mm then the socket could be replaced by a cooker connection unit.

You need to check with the installers just what they will fit to.

I say this because I did a job today to fit a dual appliance cooker connection unit and was told by the fitters that they wouldn't connect to it because they weren't part p. - fair enough I'll just go back tomorrow.

I would guess that unless the cooker is fitted with a 13amp plug they will not connect you up.
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ban-all-sheds

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:37 pm Reply with quote

riveralt wrote:
What is the electrical power rating of the oven/cooker?

Twin303 wrote:
Electrical connection 4mm2 twin and earth 230/240V a.c. 50Hz.
13A fuse.

No more than 3kW would be my guess.....

Although why that requires a 4mm˛ cable beats me.

Quote:
If the socket has been connected to the cooker switch by 6mm and the circuit itself is 6mm then the socket could be replaced by a cooker connection unit.

13A fuse.....?

Quote:
I say this because I did a job today to fit a dual appliance cooker connection unit and was told by the fitters that they wouldn't connect to it because they weren't part p.

Eejits.

1) Connecting an appliance is not notifiable.

2) If the customer has paid for installation then they are *******-well obliged to provide installation.


Quote:
I would guess that unless the cooker is fitted with a 13amp plug they will not connect you up.

Selling installation services for an appliance which they are not prepared to install is illegal.


Twin303 wrote:
Any help with this would be amazing, I don't want to spend money on a John Lewis installation if they will not complete it.

Ask them what they want. You're going to have to pay someone to install it because of the gas aspect.

If the cooker comes with a plug then then can just plug it in to the existing socket.

If it doesn't then I wonder how they expect a 13A fused supply to be provided.
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riveralt

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:59 pm Reply with quote

ban-all-sheds wrote:
riveralt wrote:
What is the electrical power rating of the oven/cooker?

Twin303 wrote:
Electrical connection 4mm2 twin and earth 230/240V a.c. 50Hz.
13A fuse.

No more than 3kW would be my guess.....

Although why that requires a 4mm˛ cable beats me.


That's why I asked about the power rating -

ban-all-sheds wrote:
riveralt wrote:
I say this because I did a job today to fit a dual appliance cooker connection unit and was told by the fitters that they wouldn't connect to it because they weren't part p.

Eejits.
1) Connecting an appliance is not notifiable.
2) If the customer has paid for installation then they are *******-well obliged to provide installation.

BAS When do you reckon that changing a single cooker connection for a dual appliance cooker connection warrants a Part P notification?

Orignally a gas hob and electric (17Amps after diversity) oven now electric hob and dual electric oven - 6mm cable 32Amp MCB through cooker switch with socket. Total new load 9.8kw - 25 Amps after diversity.
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ban-all-sheds

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:05 pm Reply with quote

riveralt wrote:
BAS When do you reckon that changing a single cooker connection for a dual appliance cooker connection warrants a Part P notification?

When new fixed cabling is provided.
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The following user says thank you to ban-all-sheds for this useful post:
riveralt (11 Nov 2010)
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Twin303

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Joined: 11 Nov 2010
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Location: West Midlands,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:22 pm Reply with quote

Thanks for all the replies,

I will go to the Lewis and ask how the cooker connects. What is confusing me is that the supply needed is 30amp so how could it connect via a 13amp plug?

Below is what the brochure says about our cooker -

"All dual fuel models require a 30amp electric supply in addition to a gas supply and should be installed by a qualified electrician who will supply the correctly rated cable".

How much of a big job is it to change the standard plug socket to a outlet box?

Thanks

Alan
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riveralt

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:31 pm Reply with quote

Twin303 wrote:
Thanks for all the replies,

I will go to the Lewis and ask how the cooker connects. What is confusing me is that the supply needed is 30amp so how could it connect via a 13amp plug?

Below is what the brochure says about our cooker -

"All dual fuel models require a 30amp electric supply in addition to a gas supply and should be installed by a qualified electrician who will supply the correctly rated cable".

How much of a big job is it to change the standard plug socket to a outlet box?

Thanks

Alan


If you provide answers to the questions I raised earlier I might be able to advise you.
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Chri5

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:36 pm Reply with quote

That 32 amp cooker plate with socket will suffice.

have you tried pulling the existing cooker out. I think you will find there's an outlet for the cooker plate somewhere.

The idea is that you have a cable from the CU to the cooker plate the cooker plate you have offers 2 x functions a 13 amp socket AND a feed to an electric cooker.

Worst can will be bashing the tiles and making a route for a 30 amp tail between the switch and the cooker unit.

Best case is that the single socket was changed from cooker outlet to socket because the existing cooker was on a plug (and cutting off a plug screws warranties).

Undo the plug and show us a picture I bet it's a 6mm feed from the cooker main outlet / switch / socket.
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Twin303

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:44 pm Reply with quote

When you say undo the plug, do you mean remove the front off of the socket? if so should the mains be off at this point?
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Twin303

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Joined: 11 Nov 2010
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Location: West Midlands,
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:48 pm Reply with quote

Hi Riveralt,

I think the manual says it is a 4.5/4.9KW

I do not know the size of the cable on the circuit.

Thanks

Alan[/quote]
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Chri5

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:52 pm Reply with quote

Twin303 wrote:
When you say undo the plug, do you mean remove the front off of the socket? if so should the mains be off at this point?


Sorry, yes I mean take off the socket face with the fuse pulled.


Before you do that- when you switch the big red cooker switch, does it kill anything plugged in to the socket you potographed ? (this would confirm the socket is a feed via the main cooker switch)
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Twin303

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Joined: 11 Nov 2010
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Location: West Midlands,
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:55 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
Before you do that- when you switch the big red cooker switch, does it kill anything plugged in to the socket you potographed ? (this would confirm the socket is a feed via the main cooker switch)


Yes it does kill anything plugged into the socket.
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riveralt

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:58 pm Reply with quote

Twin303 wrote:
Hi Riveralt,

I think the manual says it is a 4.5/4.9KW

I do not know the size of the cable on the circuit.

Thanks

Alan


I will assume that because it is a dual fuel unit then one of those numbers is a gas equivalent and the other is the oven. The 4.9kw equates to 19Amps after diversity (assuming you have a socket in the cooker switch).

If your cooker circuit is protected by a 32Amp MCB then your new cooker is okay for this circuit. It is likely that the cable is 6mm (but you do need someone to check). The purpose of the MCB is that it should trip before damage is done to the cable.

You have two choices here. If you feel confident enough to change the socket for a cooker connection unit and the cable is the right rating then you should do so. Alternatively, call an electrician and get them to check the wiring and install the cooker connection unit for you.
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Twin303

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Joined: 11 Nov 2010
Posts: 8
Location: West Midlands,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:32 pm Reply with quote

I can't get to the socket the current cooker is connected to, I would need to take some of the kitchen units apart.

I have taken a photo of the inside of the cooker control unit, I am not sure if you can glean anything from this photo?

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ban-all-sheds

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:32 pm Reply with quote

Twin303 wrote:
"All dual fuel models require a 30amp electric supply

That makes sense.

Lord knows what the earlier 13A is. Ignore it.


Quote:
in addition to a gas supply and should be installed by a qualified electrician who will supply the correctly rated cable".

So if you buy from JL a cooker with instructions like that and you pay JL to install it then JL must send person(s) who are qualified to install it.


Quote:
How much of a big job is it to change the standard plug socket to a outlet box?

A time measured in minutes.
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