Isolation with a TT system

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This is probably more theoretical than anything else, since I imagine that common sense probably usually prevails (even if perhaps 'despite the regs'), but I would appreciate some assistance in interpreting the reg's intentions as regards isolation in TT systems:

(1)...537.2.1.1 appears to imply that, with a TT system, there must be a facility for isolating every circuit which includes isolation of the neutral conductor. However, it also says that "provision may be made for isolation of a group of circuits by a common means". Does this mean that an RCD or main switch in a CU would satisfy this requirement for a means of DP isolation for all the circuits supplied by the device?

(2)...5.1.1.iii of the OSG appears to interpret 537.2.1.2 of the regs as meaning that, in addition to the ability to isolate circuits, every 'item of equipment' needs 'a means of isolation', hence seemingly DP isolation for a TT system (per 537.2.1.1). Is that how 537.2.1.2 is generally interpreted? If so, more importantly, is this to be intepreted as meaning that each item of equipment requires its own means of (seemingly DP for TT) isolation - or, as in (1) above, do the regs intend that isolation of a group of circuits (at the CU) including the one serving the item would be adequate? If not, everything permanently wired, including every light fitting, would presumably theoretically require a means of independent DP isolation with a TT system ('plugged' in appliances/equipment are preumably OK, since the plug/socket is an acceptable means of isolation).

(3)...Thinking about the implications, specifically in relation to my installation, I think that any potential issues would probably be mainly in relation to lighting and some fans - since most other things are likely to have plug/socket, DP FCU or DP switch available for isolation. With lighting, it could get silly, so I think it's probably best to stick with common sense! As for extractor fans, my house has several. The ones with timers (i.e. with constant L, as well as switched L, feeds) have the standard 3-pole isolator switches (hence isolating neutral). However, some are simple 'on-off' fans with simple SP switches (mainly pull switches) - seemingly no worse than any light bulb or lighting fitting but obviously without any local isolation of neutral, so I wonder what the regs really intend there.

(4)...In passing, although it's not something I would ever contemplate, am I interpreting 537.2.2.5 correctly? On the face of it, it seems to be saying that physically adjacent, but separate, isolators for L and N could be acceptable - even though that opens the dangerous possibility of interupting N but not L.

Kind Regards, John
 
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Read 114.1, 2nd para, then look up the ESQCR.
Presumably the 'requirements of ESQCR' referred to in that paragraph do not apply in the case of a TT system, in which case the paragraph refers one straight back to Chapter 53 of the regs - hence all my questions!
Your interpretation of 537.2.2.5 is correct. The reference to single pole devices is more IET nonsense and is ignored by the electrical industry, as are quite a few other regs.
As I suspected. Not just nonsense but dangerous nonsense, certainly deserving of being ignored!

Kind Regards, John
 
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Presumably the 'requirements of ESQCR' referred to in that paragraph do not apply in the case of a TT system, in which case the paragraph refers one straight back to Chapter 53 of the regs - hence all my questions!
The ESQCR apply to all and every main supply, the relevant part is that the dno's do not have to comply with the ESQCR regarding removal of fused neutrals until 2013. And it is extremely unlikely they will ever comply.
Therefore single pole isolation on any supply type only complies with the regs if the supply complies with the ESQCR.
OK, bad wording on my part. When I said 'do not apply', what I was suggesting is that the aspect of ESQCR being discussed in that paragraph is 'not applicable' for (could not be satisfied with) a TT system, since DNOs do not provide the earth connection, and therefore have no control over it.

Kind Regards, John
 
And it is extremely unlikely they will ever comply.

Considering the amount DNO's stand to be fined if they don't, I would suggest they will make every effort to comply, I know that we are!
 
This discussion about ESQCR is all very interesting, but does anyone have any thoughts about my original questions - i.e. whether the regs are to be interpreted as theoretically requiring DP switching for lights and non-timer fans in a TT installation - even though I feel sure that no-one actually does this?

On a purely practical level, two-way DP light switching would not be possible with readily (or even not-so-readily) available switches, even grid switches (anyone seen a DPDT domestic switch?) - and nor, as far as I am aware, does anyone make multigang DP switch plates (although grid switches could be used there, if it was all 'one-way' switching).

Kind Regards, John
 
Hi John,

I think that you answered the question as you asked it....

....so I think it's probably best to stick with common sense!

If the regs did call for DP isolation at every point (like you mention) for a TT system, then I imagine there is not one single TT install anywhere in the country that complies fully.

FWIW, although possibly a bit clumsy in the way it was written, i think that the intention of 537.2.1.2 was to do with promoting the provision of no-volt release motor starters and similar equipment, or lockable isolation.

Just a thought, (I knows its pie-in-the-sky and will never happen) but i sometimes think there should have been two different sets of wiring regs, one for typical domestic level installs and one for industrials/factories etc.
They could then have made each set for less ambiguous to the concerned sparks. Im sure there would be a lot of over lap between the two, but it could cut out a lot of confusion amongst some folk.

I think that all encompassing BRB can sometimes be purposefully vague due to the authors catering for all scenarios whilst carefully trying not to convey something un-intended.
 
Isn't this covered with a double-pole 100mA RCD in place of the standard isolator switch in the CU?
 
I think that you answered the question as you asked it....
....so I think it's probably best to stick with common sense!
True. As you go on to say, one only has to look at any domestic installation to see that's what everyone does. However, I reckon it's a pretty poor situation if/when one has to over-ride 'regulations', of any sort, by common sense. Indeed, were 'the regs' actually mandatory (which a good few people would seem to favour), one theoretically would not have the option of invoking common sense.
If the regs did call for DP isolation at every point (like you mention) for a TT system, then I imagine there is not one single TT install anywhere in the country that complies fully.
Exactly.
FWIW, although possibly a bit clumsy in the way it was written, i think that the intention of 537.2.1.2 was to do with promoting the provision of no-volt release motor starters and similar equipment, or lockable isolation.
Indeed, that's precisiely what I would also have thought. However, as I pointed out, 5.1.1.iii the OSG (also written by the IET) indicates that isolation is required 'for every item of equipment' and Part 2 of the regs defines 'Equipment' to include anything which ultilises electrical energy, with luminaires as one of the examples. Furthermore (in relation to how you and I would otherwise be inclined to interpret the intention of 537.2.1.1), the OSG goes on to deal with much of that separately in 5.1.1.iv. Hence, whatever the intention of the person who wrote 537.2.1, there seems little scope for interpreting the intention of the person who wrote 5.1.1 of the OSG as being other than that 'everything' (including every lighting 'item') should be provided with a means of isolation. This obviously does not really matter unless one has a TT system, since the single-pole light etc. switching will presumably satisfy the isolation requirements of 537.2.1.1 with TN-S or TN-C-S.

Just a thought, (I knows its pie-in-the-sky and will never happen) but i sometimes think there should have been two different sets of wiring regs, one for typical domestic level installs and one for industrials/factories etc.
They could then have made each set for less ambiguous to the concerned sparks. Im sure there would be a lot of over lap between the two, but it could cut out a lot of confusion amongst some folk.
Yes, I definitely agree with that - or, at least, to make clear distinctions within a single set of regs as regards what applies to domestic installs and what replies to 'bigger' things.

I think that all encompassing BRB can sometimes be purposefully vague due to the authors catering for all scenarios whilst carefully trying not to convey something un-intended.
Yes, I certainly agree with the spirit of that. However, in the context we are talking about, if the author (particularly the author of the OSG) was "carefully trying not to convey something unintended", then I fear that (s)he has failed dismally in that 'trying'as far as I am concerned - since, as I've said, I find it very had to read the OSG to be saying anything other than something which I suspect was actually unintended (or, at least, which was never going to be heeded!).

Kind Regards, John
 
Isn't this covered with a double-pole 100mA RCD in place of the standard isolator switch in the CU?
As far as circuits (or groups of circuits, permitted by 537.2.1.1) are concerned, any DP device in the CU will suffice for satisfying 537.2.1.1, even with a TT system - whether that device be the RCD you mention, a 30mA RCD protecting final circuits or even a main switch in the CU.

The problem arises with 5.1.1.iii of the OSG interpreting 537.2.1.2 as requiring (by implication, separate) isolation for each 'item of equipment' - which, per definitions in Part 2 of the regs, would include, amongst other things, every light bulb or lighting fitting.

Kind Regards, John
 
But the quotes you gave said "every" and not "each". I thought that with a TT system, you just needed the extra 100 mA RCD double-pole isolator to protect every circuit from major earth leakage because the earth rod cannot take the required fault current. The 30 mA RCD requirement still applies to every circuit without concentric earth or mechanical protection. If all circuits are fitted with 30 mA RCBOs then I think that would be adequate and no additional 100 mA RCD is required.
 
But the quotes you gave said "every" and not "each". I thought that with a TT system, you just needed the extra 100 mA RCD double-pole isolator to protect every circuit from major earth leakage because the earth rod cannot take the required fault current. The 30 mA RCD requirement still applies to every circuit without concentric earth or mechanical protection. If all circuits are fitted with 30 mA RCBOs then I think that would be adequate and no additional 100 mA RCD is required.
This is going off at a bit of a tangent, but I don't think that there is any requirement (and can't see why there should be) for a 100mA RCD if (as will be case with many/most '17th edition' installs) each and every final circuit is protected by 30mA RCDs or RCBOs. As I understand the situation, such 100mA RCDs are really a leftover from older practices (e.g. 'split-load', or no 30mA RCDs at all) - and is only really applicable to installations under current regs if there are any circuits which are unprotected by a 30mA RCD or RCBO (and wired such that they are allowed to be unprotected).

However, none of that has anything much to do with the point I'm discussing. I agree that it's down to words. However, given that the preceding item in the OSG's list of things requiring a means of isolation is "every circuit" (5.1.1.ii), it would make little sense to then have "every item of equipment" (5.1.1.iii) if those 'every items' could be isolated at circuit level, rather than 'each' level. This would therefore strongly suggest (at least to me!) that "every item" actually means "each item, separately" - otherwise there would be no point in having 5.1.1.iii at all, since it would already have been covered by 5.1.1.ii ('every circuit').

That's how I see it, anyway.

Kind Regards, John.
edit: typo corrected.
 
The reason I said that is because in one area of london there are fuses contained in very ancient cast iron bell housings located in the pavement.
I don't know if they were used all over uk but I would suspect they have fused neutrals.

We have link boxes that conform to that description, only fused when being used for fault location purposes, the neutrals are never fused in them. Having said that there are also a lot of weird and wonderful bits of ancient kit out there in some locations!



Are the dno's actually inspecting service heads looking for fused neutrals.

We are and changing them on the same day if found. We will also inspect other premises on streets where we find one
 

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