I'd rather have a speed boat. As I live in the Derby area, it would probably be more use than a DNO number phone no.
RECENT C & G 2382 question
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I'd rather have a speed boat. As I live in the Derby area, it would probably be more use than a DNO number phone no.
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lol, indeed. However, if the answer to a fairly simple question 'is it B or am i a bit thick' gets 6 pages, then that concept will roll on for ever...
We might even end up talking about cylindricity before long
Quite so, but it's an on-line phenomenon - a late 20th/ early 21st century version of what has gone on in pubs and bars since the year dot. Judging by some of what we see, I suspect that some of the contributors may perpetuate that tradition fairly literally by ensuring that their blood alcohol levels are pretty high before they 'say their piece'lol, indeed. However, if the answer to a fairly simple question 'is it B or am i a bit thick' gets 6 pages, then that concept will roll on for ever...
We might even end up talking about cylindricity before long
... and, again in perpetuation of the pub tradition, what some people do not seem to understand, in this and countless oither threads, is that there is a difference of opinions and, despite what they may like to think, their opinion is not necessarily the correct one!!
Kind Regards, John
"Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be determined after consultation with the supply undertaking"
It's not pedantic to say it doesn't make sense. It just doesn't and that's as far as you need to take it when deciding what the answer to the question is. You don't need to look up the book, argue about the relevance of the notes or whatever. Just read the question and answers and it's obviously not this one.
It's not pedantic to say it doesn't make sense. It just doesn't and that's as far as you need to take it when deciding what the answer to the question is. You don't need to look up the book, argue about the relevance of the notes or whatever. Just read the question and answers and it's obviously not this one.
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Are you still saying that because you still believe that "supply undertaking" is not acceptable as a compound noun? (i.e. would you have thought differently if it had said "Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be determined after consultation with the DNO"?) If so, does that mean that you didn't accept the explanation which I gave at the bottom of page 2?
Kind Regards, John.
P
Paul_C
Wading in rather late in this one, but here goes.....
Any multiple-choice question which provides two or more answers which could be correct but demands that only one option be selected is poor, and this is definitely an example of such a question.
What does BS7671 say about the sizing of the conductor? The table specifies the minimum size permissible, and contains a note to the effect that a larger size may be required by the supplier (the supply undertaking, more of which in a moment). So consultation with the supply undertaking is necessary, otherwise how could anyone know whether that supplier has such a requirement? So answer D is undoubtedly one correct answer, even if not the only correct answer. The size should be determined after consulting the supply undertaking, otherwise you would have no way of knowing whether the minimum size set out in the table is acceptable or not.
However, as John pointed out, answer B - "Selected in accordance with the supply neutral to Table 54.8" - can be taken as being a reference which includes the note to table 54.8, not just the tabulated figures themselves. So selecting something in accordance with table 54.8 and its associated note must, of necessity, involve consulting the supply undertaking. By that interpretation, answer B is then also correct. But in this case, answer D would still be correct, since the action referred to in D is also required as part of the selection referred to in B.
As for the wording in answer D and the "supply undertaking," it makes perfect sense, also as John has already explained. The fact that the precise wording in the note to table 54.8 doesn't coincide exactly with the terminology used in answer D doesn't alter the meaning of the words in D.
The "supply undertaking" is the organization which undertakes to supply electrical power to the premises, and was the standard term for decades, long before "DNO" came along. You'll find it used throughout older editions of the IEE Wiring Regs.
Any multiple-choice question which provides two or more answers which could be correct but demands that only one option be selected is poor, and this is definitely an example of such a question.
What does BS7671 say about the sizing of the conductor? The table specifies the minimum size permissible, and contains a note to the effect that a larger size may be required by the supplier (the supply undertaking, more of which in a moment). So consultation with the supply undertaking is necessary, otherwise how could anyone know whether that supplier has such a requirement? So answer D is undoubtedly one correct answer, even if not the only correct answer. The size should be determined after consulting the supply undertaking, otherwise you would have no way of knowing whether the minimum size set out in the table is acceptable or not.
However, as John pointed out, answer B - "Selected in accordance with the supply neutral to Table 54.8" - can be taken as being a reference which includes the note to table 54.8, not just the tabulated figures themselves. So selecting something in accordance with table 54.8 and its associated note must, of necessity, involve consulting the supply undertaking. By that interpretation, answer B is then also correct. But in this case, answer D would still be correct, since the action referred to in D is also required as part of the selection referred to in B.
As for the wording in answer D and the "supply undertaking," it makes perfect sense, also as John has already explained. The fact that the precise wording in the note to table 54.8 doesn't coincide exactly with the terminology used in answer D doesn't alter the meaning of the words in D.
The "supply undertaking" is the organization which undertakes to supply electrical power to the premises, and was the standard term for decades, long before "DNO" came along. You'll find it used throughout older editions of the IEE Wiring Regs.
Exactly, and that has been my point all along - the mere existance of the debate (in which some views are strongly polarised) is evidence enough for me that it's a poor question. Those who argue strongly that there is only one correct answer (whichever one they subscribe to!) appear to be missing that.
I'm also pleased to see that you agree with the other points I've made.
Kind Regards, John.
The note is not an "exception" to Table 54.8, it is AN INTEGRAL PART OF TABLE 54.8.
Yup - to size in accordance with Table 54.8 means actually reading Table 54.8 and taking note of the fact the the local distributor's network conditions may require a larger conductor.
Poor ability to read the question and poor ability to read the regulations I says.
You said you knew the answer they wanted was B.
You were there to pass the exam.
If you had taken the trouble to actually read the question, and actually read Table 54.8 (including the note that is an integral part of it) you would have seen that the reason they wanted B was that B was the right answer.
So do I have more respect for an answer which you knew they did not regard as correct, and which you would have known was incorrect if you'd done your job properly?
What do you think.....
The "supply undertaking" is not a term I have come across before. If it was that common I would have expected to see it on this forum before now. Certainly it has never been taught as correct terminology for a long time (please correct me if i'm wrong). They like to test you to make sure you are using the latest terminology in these 'exams' (for example wording of labels). I do not believe C&G would ever use the term 'supply undertaking' when they mean 'DNO' or 'local distributor'
I accept the usage in the same way to 'large (etc) undertaking', from a web dictionary definition: "an agreement to do something, a guaranty, engagement, or promise, a task or assignment, a venture"
But it still doesn't make sense to me: "Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be determined after consultation with the supply assignment/venture etc"
It's not quite the same as "Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be determined after consultation with the local distributor (or DNO)"
Even if it is the right kind of noun in some obscure way I still don''t agree it's a decent sentence/answer . . . the main bonding conductor what? length?, csa? It's just too wishy-washy.
Even if it did say 'sized after consultation with the local distributor' I still think dingbat's right, but I agree it's not a good question.
I accept the usage in the same way to 'large (etc) undertaking', from a web dictionary definition: "an agreement to do something, a guaranty, engagement, or promise, a task or assignment, a venture"
But it still doesn't make sense to me: "Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be determined after consultation with the supply assignment/venture etc"
It's not quite the same as "Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be determined after consultation with the local distributor (or DNO)"
Even if it is the right kind of noun in some obscure way I still don''t agree it's a decent sentence/answer . . . the main bonding conductor what? length?, csa? It's just too wishy-washy.
Even if it did say 'sized after consultation with the local distributor' I still think dingbat's right, but I agree it's not a good question.
Many of us (including me) accept that argument as to why B can be regarded as a correct answer. However (give or take all the unnecessary fuss about the phrase 'supply undertaking') in what sense do you think that answer D, in itself, is incorrect? Let's face it, as you say, by virtue of the note in Table 54.8 it is effectively part of the other answer which you believe to be correct - so I can't really see how it can be incorrect itself.
If you believe that answer B is correct, but could not give a reason why answer D is, in itself, incorrect , then you presumably would have to agree that it's a very bad question - since it obviously should not have two answers both of which are 'correct', or even 'arguably correct'.
Kind Regards, John
I was out.
I toyed with defying the ban last night, but decided not to.
If I had I'd have said the same as you - the name of a straight line between two points on the circumference of a circle is "chord", and the length of the longest such line you can construct is the diameter of the circle.
Thanks for that Ban.
I'm glad you held off defying, I wanted to give others the chance to answer first 'cos I knew Diameter would be a popular answer and didn't want you to thunder in with the proper answer too early.
The C & G question - actually I think it might be argued that B/ & D/ are both correct or to put it another way, neither are wrong answers. I will admit though that your point about about the note being an integral part of the table rather than a mere attachment to it so to speak has enhanced that view.
I'm glad you held off defying, I wanted to give others the chance to answer first 'cos I knew Diameter would be a popular answer and didn't want you to thunder in with the proper answer too early.
The C & G question - actually I think it might be argued that B/ & D/ are both correct or to put it another way, neither are wrong answers. I will admit though that your point about about the note being an integral part of the table rather than a mere attachment to it so to speak has enhanced that view.
It's incomplete.
You could just as well extend the list....
Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be -
A/ Half the c.s.a of the earth conductor to Table 54.8
B/ Selected in accordance with the supply neutral to Table 54.8
C/ Determined after consultation with the consumer
D/ Determined after consultation with the supply undertaking.
E/ Installed after legally gaining access to the property.
Think what the purpose of the exam is.
It is to test your ability to find the regulation which is relevant to the scenario in the question.
It is to prove that you can read.
If we break "using Table 54.8" down into its 2 main actions, it consists of
ACTION 1 - check with the supplier.
ACTION 2 - if they have no special requirements use the sizes below.
So the multiple choice answers were:
Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be -
A/ Half the c.s.a of the earth conductor to Table 54.8
B/ Action 1 and Action 2
C/ Determined after consultation with the consumer
D/ Action 1 and, err......
I hesitate to get into a semantic discussion with ban, but a diameter of a circle is any chord which passes through the centre point of the circle. The diameter of a circle is the length of such a line.
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