Problems with new central heating install

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Middlesex
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Just before I part with the best part of £5K, I have a few issues with a new central heating install which was to replace an old gravity-fed system.

The new system was combi-boiler based.

One of the existing radiators (which was a vertical wall radiator) does not heat up properly. The edges heat up but the whole surface does not.

The power shower was replaced with a regular thermostatic shower by the fitters. The pressure is very low. It's just about acceptable but hardly like they described it would be.

The fitters tell me that I now need to have my water mains pipe replaced with a plastic pipe to allow more flow.

So, I presume that they fitters need to fix the radiator that isn't warming up properly but what about the lack of pressure from the shower (which they recommended and fitted)? Do I know need to fork out another £1500 to get my water main pipe replaced or should the fitters have checked pressures and flow rates to begin with?
 
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Do I know need to fork out another £1500 to get my water main pipe replaced or should the fitters have checked pressures and flow rates to begin with?

(apart from the £1500 which I cant verify),

yes
yes

Mr. W.
 
Did the radiator warm up fine 2 weeks ago?

Hard to comment on the shower performance as "hardly acceptable" is not exactly an accurate disription. Apart from that, you failed to tell us what the previous flow, pressure and temperature were, what the the new shower's performance was specced at, what current mains flow and pressure are, and finally what boiler you have.
We are engineers, not seers.
 
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Just before I part with the best part of £5K, I have a few issues with a new central heating install which was to replace an old gravity-fed system.

The new system was combi-boiler based.

The fitters tell me that I now need to have my water mains pipe replaced with a plastic pipe to allow more flow.
The fitters should have tested the incoming flow rate and pressure before saying that a combi was suitable. You would then have know that your mains needed upgrading and taken that into consideration.

Why do you want/need a combi boiler?

Have you signed any contract with the installers? If you haven't it might be sensible to get two other quotations.
 
Why do you want/need a combi boiler?

Have you signed any contract with the installers? If you haven't it might be sensible to get two other quotations.[/quote]


It's too late. the new system is fitted and working (ish)

As said, it would be wrong to pass comment as we on't know the original condition of the radiator, and the discussions that preceded your acceptance of their quote.

The issue with the flow rate is not neccesarily the incoming mains. Have they tested this ,now, or did they identify the "faukt" over the 'phone?
 
The shower pressure really depends on the power shower system that you had in place. I advise my clients that by changing over to a combi, power shower will have to go, and you are dependant upon what the new system will give you, as far as the vertical rad is concerned the system may just need balancing so no biggie their.

However you haven't given us info on new boiler, or old power shower system.
 
Anyone changing from a cylinder to a combi should be very careful and reading a few minutes on a forum like this you would see that all combis only power one outlet properly.

Nothing you have said gives us any indication of what you have now and particularly what boiler power. A basic boiler is 24 kW and a just adequate mains flow rate is a dynamic flow of 10 litres per minute @ 1 Bar.

I, or others, could come and assess your system but that would be a chargeable call and it does sound as if you have been poorly advised and the system badly specified. No competent installer would fit a combi boiler without having first measured the dynamic mains flow rate.

Tony
 
The boiler is a WB 30CDi.

The shower was recommended by the installers.

What they did today was to leave the heating on for over 2 hours to get the vertical rad to warm up. That's obviously not acceptable! This particula rad worked perfectly on the old system and would set fire to your face if you walked past it too close!

The rad itself hasn't been replaced. But I think it's position in terms of being number 1, number 2, etc from the boiler is now different. Just the extreme left and right edges heat up. It's almost as if hot water isn't getting into the central 90% of the rad surface. There's also the sound of running/trickling water in the large vertical rad - this sound wasn't there before.

With regards to the shower, the installers are now blaming the convoluted pipework as the hot and cold feeds go up to the loft and back down again, yet it was they who decided that this is how the pipes should be connected after the tanks were removed.

I have been sent the invoice and I think I should pay for a professional opinion on the installation before I pay for the installation.
 
Some of these vertical radiators are very sensitive to having the pipework correct. Ie they need the flow and return into the right sides of the rad. Is it possible that the fitters have now made the flow the return and vica versa?

Graham
 
How do I go about having the system independently checked? Obviously i'm prepared to pay for the system to be independently checked. I would need a report of all the design and installation faults.

I sent this to the heating company in response to their invoice payment request:

"I currently have the following issues following the 'completion' of the job yesterday:

1. The shower is virtually useless due to a lack of adequate pressure. The engineers suggested that this was due to the lengths of pipework that the water has to flow through and the twists and bends. But I would have expected the engineers to know of this issue before undertaking the work. It was suggested that the location of the boiler in the garage was the best place for it. This is obviously some distance away from the mains water feed. Again, the engineers should have known this prior to the job being undertaken.

2. It has been suggested that I now need to upgrade my mains water pipe to allow more flow rate. Again, this advice should be given at the beginning of the job and not at the end of the job when things aren't working properly. As far as I know, heating engineers (and plumbers) always measure the mains water pressure and flow rate to ensure that the solution they provide will be compatible. If the mains pipe requires renewing to provide more flow then this is the very first job that must be done prior to the central heating system being installed.

3. The large vertical original radiator is still not warming up properly. Leaving it on for two hours for it to warm up isn't acceptable. Also, there is the sound of trickling water through this radiator. This noise was not there before the work was undertaken. I was told to bleed the radiator but this should be part of the job! Naturally, this is not acceptable of a completed central heating installation. This off-white radiator was touched up with white enamel paint. Originally I was told that off-white paint wasn't in stock and then the story changed to the radiator being discoloured when it was clearly off-white to begin with.

4. The main bathroom radiator does not warm up at all. Obviously this is not acceptable of a 'completed' central heating installation.

So I am now left with a partially working heating system and a shower that is barely usable. Prior to <company> undertaking the replacement of the central heating system I had a perfectly working heating system and a powerful power shower. The replacement central heating system was specified by <company> so I would expect one to perform at least as well as the old one, if not better. I certainly don't expect it to perform worse than the old system!

5. The "Installation, Commissioning and Service Record Log Book" has not been completed. I understand that this must be completed and handed over in order to comply with the manufacturers equipment requirements and building regulations.

I will now be paying for an independent review of the heating system installed by <company> and the associated costs to put the work right."


Are those fair points or am I being unreasonable in expecting the heating system to work properly?! I have removed the name of the company from that quote.
 
So they haven't even filled in the benchmark?? :eek: Are they gas safe registered??
 
I will now be paying for an independent review of the heating system installed by <company> and the associated costs to put the work right."

You should not have included those words at this stage as the company should have been given the opportunity to put the faults right.

As we dont know boiler size or the mains flow rate some of the comments about this are possibly incorrect.

Your biggest problem is that they have persuaded you to have a combi boiler when that was almost certainly not the best solution.

In addition they should have notified the installation to Building Control, normally through Gas Safe which gives you a Certificate by post.

Its clear that they are poor quality installers just from not completing the Benchmark Certificate.

You will almost certainly have to choose a competent engineer to visit and assess the situation and write a report and then negotiate a settlement with the installers.

Tony Glazier
 
I am afraid you may have made a couple of tactical mistakes. Tony Agile, while often utterring total garbage, is right in so far as you probably should have given the installlers the opportunity to rectify (maybe you fel that you have), and that iot is by no means certain that the incoming mains is the culprit. Eithedr way, I would have tempered the letter with the proviso, that unless they visit, report and rectify, within a set time period, this will be the course of action.


How do I go about having the system independently checked? Obviously i'm prepared to pay for the system to be independently checked. I would need a report of all the design and installation faults.

I sent this to the heating company in response to their invoice payment request:

"I currently have the following issues following the 'completion' of the job yesterday:

1. The shower is virtually useless due to a lack of adequate pressure. The engineers suggested that this was due to the lengths of pipework that the water has to flow through and the twists and bends. But I would have expected the engineers to know of this issue before undertaking the work. It was suggested that the location of the boiler in the garage was the best place for it. This is obviously some distance away from the mains water feed. Again, the engineers should have known this prior to the job being undertaken.[/i

Fasir enough

]2. It has been suggested that I now need to upgrade my mains water pipe to allow more flow rate.

He will say "by whom". He won't be impressed with advice of a forum.

Again, this advice should be given at the beginning of the job and not at the end of the job when things aren't working properly. As far as I know, heating engineers (and plumbers) always measure the mains water pressure and flow rate to ensure that the solution they provide will be compatible. If the mains pipe requires renewing to provide more flow then this is the very first job that must be done prior to the central heating system being installed.


Fair enough, but shoulkd have been precede by "£IF that is the case,"

3. The large vertical original radiator is still not warming up properly. Leaving it on for two hours for it to warm up isn't acceptable. Also, there is the sound of trickling water through this radiator. This noise was not there before the work was undertaken.

True

I was told to bleed the radiator but this should be part of the job!

Little bit pedantic. It is often the case tast a rad or two will need bleeding. It is after asll, a customer funcvtio, but they should have explained that ion commisionig (at least I always did)

This off-white radiator was touched up with white enamel paint. Originally I was told that off-white paint wasn't in stock and then the story changed to the radiator being discoloured when it was clearly off-white to begin with.

Frankly, thhey were a bit stupid to accept touching up of a rad as part of the contract. It us a recipe for distress

4. The main bathroom radiator does not warm up at all. Obviously this is not acceptable of a 'completed' central heating installation.

So I am now left with a partially working heating system and a shower that is barely usable. Prior to <company> undertaking the replacement of the central heating system I had a perfectly working heating system and a powerful power shower. The replacement central heating system was specified by <company> so I would expect one to perform at least as well as the old one, if not better. I certainly don't expect it to perform worse than the old system!



5. The "Installation, Commissioning and Service Record Log Book" has not been completed. I understand that this must be completed and handed over in order to comply with the manufacturers equipment requirements and building regulations.


All True

I will now be paying for an independent review of the heating system installed by <company> and the associated costs to put the work right."

Thisd is completely misworded. You have, in writing, agreed that YOU will pay for the consultant AND the remedials! I assume it was not your intention, but that is how it reads.


Are those fair points or am I being unreasonable in expecting the heating system to work properly?! I have removed the name of the company from that quote.


In principole, most of your points are fair, and it is mainly a well constructed letter. However the bleeding and, possibly, paint color issues are a little off.

The problem with clkient disatisfaction is that each ensuing problem is magnified beyond it's actual worth.
 
So they haven't even filled in the benchmark?? :eek: Are they gas safe registered??

Yes, they are Gas Safe registered!

I have a benchmark logbook with my address on the front. It has not been filled in with any details on the inside pages whatsoever - completely blank.

I have paid for an independent engineer to visit on Friday and review the installation.

Isn't a completed benchmark logbook a requirement? Which regulations have they broken but not providing me with a completed benchmark logbook?

Oh, and they've now b*ggered up my very expensive vertical rad. Five of their guys were on site yesterday trying all sorts of plumbing combinations to get it to heat up properly. They gave up after over four hours on site and declared the radiator to be faulty. It was working fine before they touched it! LOL.

They've asked me to buy a new one which they'll fit for free. No way will I let them near my house again.
 

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