Kitchen Waste dilemma

Darjm · 14 Jun 2005

Recently my kitchen waste has become blocked..

Under a plumbing and drains contract , i had dynorod visit, they required access to a 4inch stack in the corner of my kitchen, this required removal of half my units, and sink.

Once they had access, they jetted down the stack. After a little while, and with little or no water coming back, they tried to remove the hose, but it was stuck, fast. It remains there still!

After days of investigation, 2 unsuccessful cctv runs, and building plans looked at, i've been left with a possible broken or collapsed drain/pipe run, underneath mine or neighbours property (no building plans showed which route waste was taken unbelievably) which is approximately 1 metre down under my floor, approx 4-5m from the kitchen waste entry point.

The 4inch stack they originally jetted in, turns out to be a rain water stack that extends up, out onto the roof, and takes gutter water down into my kitchen drain run, something i wasn't aware , or made aware of when i bought the flat.

My bathroom waste pipe is separate, and is 7-8m away from the rain water stack.

At the moment, when it rains the water runs down until it backs up, and overspills from the kitchen waste pipe.

If u can picture this, and have any ideas, then please feel free, cos im faced with a couple of really rotten desicions.

ChrisR · 14 Jun 2005

Thankfully not an everyday problem!

aaaaa1) Take photographs!

1) get a solicitor, but ask them what cases they've had with building etc involved. No good getting one who does eg family law, they can often be worse than useless if they don't have the right experience.
2) take him/her a copy of the contract you have with the drain insurance people.

I would want the opinion of a very well qualified/experienced/respected plumber/builder. Most plumbers aren't heavily involved in underground stuff. I'd call the local Building Control dept of your council - they might not want to get involved but they do who does what and I've always found them helpful. Drains are their department when it comes to building. They may be able to suggest local firm(s) who can help.

I'm sure we don't have to tell you to go as high as possible in the drain company and make yourself very loud.

Agile · 14 Jun 2005

I would urge some caution in dealing with this matter. You need to analyse the situation.

From what you have told us you have:-

1. A drain cleaning contract. This will have numerous exclusions but almost certainly will NOT include making good design and installation errors.

2. You have bought a property with a defect in the drainage. The solicitor you used will know nothing about drains and a property valuation would not detect this, even a full survey has exclusions about drainage.

You MIGHT have property insurance which POSSIBLY might cover a latent defect in the property but probably not!

Your situation it seems to me is that you are going to be faced with a big bill to put it right so the FIRST thing you should do is to mimimise the costs.

It seems to me that you should have the sink waste rerouted to the correct drain at your expense. Next you will probably be able to get the rainwater drain sorted out under the insurance but be sure that any work is not going to be chargeable to you unless you have agreed in advance.

I assume the property is less than 10 years old!

Tony Glazier

Darjm · 14 Jun 2005

Thanks for the quick reply..

My drains contract is with Scottish Gas, dynorod are the company they own and use to exercise the unblockages.

According to the contract, im covered for £1000 worth of repair work to these situations. Which clearly wont cover it. As i would have to dig a sizeable trench in my Kitchen/Hall area, and that would just be educated guess work as to where there might be a run or access point

Im in process of having a plumber come down, and see if theres anyway of rerouting the outside drainage and kitchen, into the newer bathroom waste stack, which has rodding eye access inside and outside the property, but dimensions may prove to difficult.

Theres been talk of saniflow.. does neone have any experience with saniflow systems regarding kitchen wastes, including washing machines and dishwashers. Is it detrimental to the ability to sell the premises? etc.

Should i attempt to uncover this mystery drain, with the chance of not finding it , or reroute the waste, which would have to travel 7-8m under the kitchen/hall floor, or install this Saniflow thing?!?

Thanks for reading

Darjm · 14 Jun 2005

Tony, you have pretty much summed up the situation..

My property was converted from a Pub/Restaurant to a block of 6 flats in 1994. According to the building plans for the flats, my kitchen waste was, and i quote, "Connected to the existing drainage for toilets"

The building plans for the Pub/Restaurant show it was built in 1991, it also shows that my kitchen encompasses what used to be the female/male toilet area. Nowhere on the plans does it show where drainage for the toilets goes into the street. It does show the rainwater stack.

Now i know there has been buildings in this site since early 1900's, ranging from "dwelling houses" to a motor garage. I tried finding plans for these in the local library archives, but every one of them were missing from the archive...

So basically the plumbing below floor level could be extremely old, and could run right underneath my neighbours bedroom, where the block could be, which opens a whole new can of worms.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oh and i could add that the rainwater pipe actually serves 4 of the 6 flats, as in the roofs of 4 of the flats all run into this one 4 inch pipe which in turn connected to my kitchen waste. JOY!

Agile · 14 Jun 2005

It is surprising how narrow minded some people can be about the solutions to problems.

My advice would be to get the rainwater and the kitchen pipes taken outside where the costs are much cheaper than digging hiole is your kitchen floor.

Only trouble is Contractors tend to hype up charges when insurance companies or homeowners are paying.

£1000 would go a long way for a simple wet plumber if Dynorod at £65 per half hour plus vat is taken out of the equation. Trouble is they have probably already run up most of that while losing their pressure jetting tube!

A saniflow pump is Ok but has ongoing maintenance costs and a natural fall outside fall system is far better. I suspect that there is no one to properly manage the problem for you.

Tony Glazier

ChrisR · 14 Jun 2005

If there's a problem with the shared drain from the roof/rooves then you may be entitled to extract money from the other owners, or their insurers. This is where you could use a solicititor who knows his subject.

Simiilarly, you need to be sure about whether dyno-rods chargeable work is in part to recover their "end", which is their problem and not part of fixing your drain, maybe. You won't be going to court over this but a few good letters pointing out others' responsibilities can save a lot of argument, and money.

Lots of whole streets of posh London houses with kitchens at basement level use sani pumps for their sink and machines. Second best I'd agree but a possible. If you go that way it's imperative that it's installed correctly - things like NO right angled sharp bends. Then you can get them dealt with by the company's service people.

Darjm · 14 Jun 2005

Correct, theres no-one. Noone wants to take liability, and noone wants to try to resolve this. Apparently its a "nightmare job".

A family friend is pointing a plumber in my direction, so hopefully he will be able to assess the situation, and we'll come to some arrangement.

Taking the waste outside isnt going to be an option unfortunately, unless i dig under my hall and my neighbours bedroom. Due to where my flat is situated, basically sorrounded by private property apart from one side, that would be the only way.

Agile · 14 Jun 2005

As the barrister for Dynorod, I would respectfully point out to Chris that had the drain been properly constructed and maintained then my Client's tool would not have become stuck in the hole!

I would also point out the plural of "roof" is usually "roofs".

If the blocked rainwater drain pipe serves several of the flats it will NORMALLY be the responsibility of the freeholder to be recovered as a service charge from those whose flats are served. BUT it depends on the wording of the Leases.

I saw one lease which made each flat responsible for ALL pipes passing through that flat!

Tony Glazier

brumylad · 14 Jun 2005

Are you the lease holder for the property, do you have access to any deeds.

The underground drains may not be your property, but the responsibility of the leaseholder ? If the pipes under your flat are sound then maybe the problem is the responsibility of your neighbour.

Like Chris_R has said, do some homework, before you start digging, find out who owns what, it may take a solicitor to find the answers.

Darjm · 14 Jun 2005

Can a CAT scanner be used in anyway to find buried non-metallic pipes under almost 1m of concrete?

Agile · 15 Jun 2005

Not on its own but with the transmitter perhaps. The usual way is to insert a metalic rod to act as the transmitter element and search for the signal with the CAT on the surface.

In this case there is a blockage/collapse and this has trapped the dynorod pressure jetting pipe.

Tony Glazier

ChrisR · 15 Jun 2005

As the barrister for Dynorod, I would respectfully point out to Chris that had the drain been properly constructed and maintained then my Client's tool would not have become stuck in the hole!

Yes Tony but you'd make a lousy Barrister. Dynorod have the equipment to see what is in any hole in which they choose to poke their appendages. They are in the business of finding problems with drains so such a commonplace occurence would be well within their scope.

I would also point out the plural of "roof" is usually "roofs".

Now why the flying f*** would you want to point that out Tony? OK it's an alternate archaic form used more in some parts of the country than others. Would thee like a list of thine persistent spelling mistakes?

Darjm my CAT has certainly found me water mains deeper than that. For a drain though there would have to be a considerable flow of water in it. Worth trying to borrow one because there are many more CAT's about than the transmitters, though you can hire both. You could do some dead-reckoning with a cctv if that were more easily available.

No point speculating as to what various contract/documents might say, or what might be assumed/the norm/default status. Get the documents together and go to an appropriately competent solicitor.

Darjm · 5 Jul 2005

*Little update (to anyone whose interested) *

Turns out my kitchen drain is PVC from the kitchen, then joins into an old fireclay drain in my hall, which then runs into the street, into a buchan? trap under my bedroom window in the street.

Problem is, and i've had 3 opinions, theres no inlet from my clay pipe into the pcv drain in the street.. you can actually hear the spray from the drain jet hose spraying against the pipe in the buchan trap.

Yay me

P.S. Im in process of pinning liability on someone, although meanwhile, would anyone like to hazard a guess as to who is responsible. Bearing in mind, 3.5yrs ago, my street was relaid, and the manholes replaced. Dynorod, Scottish water and Drainmaster all reckon the PVC pipe in the buchan trap looks new. And my drainage problems started around 2.5-3 years ago.

Although the contractor who did the job say they never replaced any pipes, and suggests that it may never have been connected since they converted the place from a pub to 6 flats in 1994..

I have some scary photos i can post here if you'd like a laugh.

JPC · 5 Jul 2005

yes plse post the pics

diynot

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Kitchen Waste dilemma

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