Final Circuit EFLI - measurement vs calculation

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Apologies if this is a bit long. I’d be grateful if you folks could help me understand what (if anything) is normally done (and how they interpret the regs) as regards measuring EFLI in final circuits, particular in TT installations (in which case I actually wonder if there is any point in measuring {rather than calculating} them) .....

Whilst there is some pragmatic merit in testing an installation ‘as is’, the regs do not allow one to rely upon water/gas service supply pipes as a means of earthing. It can therefore be argued that, as far as the regs are concerned, one really should demonstrate that EFLIs are (would be) adequately low even in the absence of earthing via such routes.

Whilst I have seen some debate about the disconnection of MPB for the purpose of EFLI measurement, I don’t think that’s what most people do (could be regarded as dangerous) and it’s certainly not what GN3 says. In any event, most installations have multiple other ‘incidental’ parallel paths to earth via the supply pipes, so removal of MPB alone does not necessarily achieve much. As a result of this, EFLI measured at the level of final circuits may well give figures that largely reflect the service pipe earthing, particularly with TT installations.

Consider my (TT) installation. Ze of the earth rod alone is usually around 75-80 Ω (a bit higher when weather is very dry). However, EFLI measured anywhere in the (many) final circuits is invariably under 1 Ω, considerably under in many cases. This is explained by the fact that the measured ‘Ze’ of the MPB alone is about 0.45 Ω and, even with earth rod and MPB disconnected, ‘Ze’ measured at the MET (i.e. reflecting ‘parallel paths’ to earth via the supply pipework) is still only about 0.55 Ω – i.e. the MPB and ‘parallel paths together’ give an effective Ze under normal operation of about 0.25 Ω.

If one is content with measurements of final circuit EFLIs with the installation ‘as is’ (with supply pipes providing the main path to earth), then those measured EFLIs are obviously fine. However, if one interprets the regs as requiring EFLIs to be acceptably low even if all routes to earth via supply pipes were to disappear, then those measured figures are obviously ridiculously low.

Hence I wonder what people do. Do they content themselves with the measured EFLIs, or do they just measure Ze and then calculate Zs as Ze+R1+R2? Although the difference is only going to be dramatic with TT installations, there will still probably be an appreciable difference with many TN systems.

Kind Regards, John.
 
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You are starting to sound like someone else who has been on this forum before.... ;)


Anyway. Your explanation of your experience with TT systems and MPB is similar to a job I have just completed where the water pipe was used as the earth.

Two 4 feet rods gave me a Ze reading of 71ohms. When the MPB was included and the rewire complete I got Zs in the range of 0.3 and 1.6ohms.
Remember that TT systems must always have an RCD protecting all circuits.

I always test the External loop impedance because that is how the circuit will be used - ie with parallel paths etc. I also know that the given values will prove to me that the Automatic Disconnection of the Supply will occur within the set parameters.

The use of calculating Zs = Ze +(R1+R2) which, in TT systems I do as well, gives me the confidence that should the parallel paths all disappear then the ADS will still occur within the set parameters.
 
You are starting to sound like someone else who has been on this forum before.... ;)
Maybe - but I can assure you (obviously can't prove!) that I've never been here in any guise other than my present one :)

Anyway. Your explanation of your experience with TT systems and MPB is similar to a job I have just completed where the water pipe was used as the earth.
Two 4 feet rods gave me a Ze reading of 71ohms. When the MPB was included and the rewire complete I got Zs in the range of 0.3 and 1.6ohms.
Yes, that's very similar to what I have here.

Remember that TT systems must always have an RCD protecting all circuits.
Indeed, and I have belts and braces. All final circuits are now protected by 30mA RCDs or RCBOs. In addition, as a left-over from the 'split load CU' days, there are 100mA Type S RCDs at the origin of the installation (plural because it's a 3-phase supply). Although no longer needed for protection, they serve as useful 'main isolators' (and also as 'back-up protection'), so have been retained.

I always test the External loop impedance because that is how the circuit will be used - ie with parallel paths etc. I also know that the given values will prove to me that the Automatic Disconnection of the Supply will occur within the set parameters.
The use of calculating Zs = Ze +(R1+R2) which, in TT systems I do as well, gives me the confidence that should the parallel paths all disappear then the ADS will still occur within the set parameters.
That's what I suspected people would say. However, I guess that (with TT) doing the measurements (with parallel paths etc.) is essentially a waste of time (although, I guess, 'chargeable time' :)) - since if the calculated figures satisfy the disconnection time requirements, the measured ones (with parallel paths etc.) certainly would. Can you think of any reason why it can be beneficial to do both?

Kind Regards, John.
 
However, I guess that (with TT) doing the measurements (with parallel paths etc.) is essentially a waste of time (although, I guess, 'chargeable time' :)) - since if the calculated figures satisfy the disconnection time requirements, the measured ones (with parallel paths etc.) certainly would. Can you think of any reason why it can be beneficial to do both?

I do both because invariably with rewires there may be a couple of days even weeks between the initial Ze and R1+R2 test and the system going live. You never know who has been poking around your wires and backboxes :eek: so it is handy to have a second chance to ensure everything is correct. - also NAPIT requires a measured value for Zs on their EIC.
 
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... Can you think of any reason why it can be beneficial to do both?
I do both because invariably with rewires there may be a couple of days even weeks between the initial Ze and R1+R2 test and the system going live. You never know who has been poking around your wires and backboxes :eek: so it is handy to have a second chance to ensure everything is correct.
I suppose that would pick up a CPC having been totally disconnected by some meddler, but Ze+R1+R2 could have dramatically deteriorated since you previously measured it, and (with the sort of installation we've been discussing) a Zs test (with parallel paths present) would leave you oblivious to that. Indeed, the meddlesome person might have even totally disconnected the earth rod, and the Zs test would probably leave you none the wiser!

- also NAPIT requires a measured value for Zs on their EIC.
Ah, I guess that clinches it. One can't argue successfully with a bureacratic requirement, regardless of how worthwhile (or otherwsie!) it may be in engineering terms! Do they require the calculated figure as well?

Kind Regards, John.
 
John

Whilst the title of your post clearly states its purpose, during your first post you make no mention, although I have no doubt that you did do it, of disconnecting the Main Earth Conductor from the rest of the installation for the measurement of Ze.

Several times disconnecting the Main Protective Bonding is mentioned although, as you say, GN3 clearly states that this is not done. This would be very irksome if it had to be done every time the value of Zs of a circuit was to be measured, by use of the meter, and then reconnected, for safety, until you came to the next circuit.

With all parallel paths removed whilst ascertaining Ze they will also be discounted when adding Ze to (R1 + R2) which will have been obtained by measurement during the 'dead' tests. Therefore by calculating Zs I would say the true value is obtained for purposes of the regulations for the safety limits. However, it would not have been possible to do this calculation without having measured the entire circuit.

The fact that the Zs of a final circuit, determined by use of the meter, is lower than the calculated value, as has been said, will indicate the value of the parallel paths in the installation and its actual state - markedly so in your case with TT.

The Electrical Installation Certificate requires to be recorded the 'maximum measured value' of Zs. This would appear, in my understanding, to be Ze + (R1 + R2) from the farthest point of the circuit calculated from measurements.
 
John Whilst the title of your post clearly states its purpose, during your first post you make no mention, although I have no doubt that you did do it, of disconnecting the Main Earth Conductor from the rest of the installation for the measurement of Ze.
Indeed. Otherwise, how do you think I would get an answer as high as 75-80 Ω :) (as I went on to say, if I do not disconnect the earth conductor from the installation, I get an answer well under 1Ω, not 75-80Ω). Was that not clear from the 'alone' in my "...Ze of the earth rod alone is usually around 75-80 Ω..."?

Several times disconnecting the Main Protective Bonding is mentioned although, as you say, GN3 clearly states that this is not done. This would be very irksome if it had to be done every time the value of Zs of a circuit was to be measured, by use of the meter, and then reconnected, for safety, until you came to the next circuit.
True - and, in any event, as I said, removing the MPB alone would achieve virtually nothing, given the (at least in my installation) countless other parallel paths via CPCs and supply pipework to earth. As I said, in my installation, disconnection of MPB merely causes the measured Ze to rise from about 0.45Ω to 0.55Ω, even though the Ze of the 'true' earth electrode is over 100 times greater than that. In case anyone suggests it, finding and disconnecting all of those incidental parallel paths would be next-to-impossible in my house, certainly not practical, even if I wanted to!

With all parallel paths removed whilst ascertaining Ze they will also be discounted when adding Ze to (R1 + R2) which will have been obtained by measurement during the 'dead' tests. Therefore by calculating Zs I would say the true value is obtained for purposes of the regulations for the safety limits. However, it would not have been possible to do this calculation without having measured the entire circuit.
As you presumably realise, that was my very point - that I would assume that is the Zs which has to satisfy the reg's safety limits, so ....

The fact that the Zs of a final circuit, determined by use of the meter, is lower than the calculated value, as has been said, will indicate the value of the parallel paths in the installation and its actual state - markedly so in your case with TT.
Exactly - so what's the point in doing it. If I do, I get figures more than 100 times lower than if I do 'the calculation' (correctly excluding parallel paths), so what is achieved by measuring these much smaller figures - it's the 'proper', much higher, ones that have to be shown to satisfy the requirements (in which case the tiny ones obvioulsy will as well!)

The Electrical Installation Certificate requires to be recorded the 'maximum measured value' of Zs. This would appear, in my understanding, to be Ze + (R1 + R2) from the farthest point of the circuit calculated from measurements.
Indeed. As above, you seem to be confirming what I assumed.

However, as I've just said (and said previously in the thread) this still leaves me wondering what on earth is the point in measuring Zs in a final circuit with a meter? Is it just the silly bureaucratic requirement mentioned by riveralt? The difference may be at its most dramatic with a TT installation, but even with a TN one it is the 'calculated' figures (not reflecting parallel paths to earth) which have to satisfy requirements, regardless of any Zs measurements with a meter.

Kind Regards, John
 
... NAPIT requires a measured value for Zs on their EIC.
That's very irresponsible of them, in view of Regulation 14 of the EAWR 1989.

Have a chat with their helpline and ask them if they would accept two measurements added together. ;)
 
...you make no mention, although I have no doubt that you did do it, of disconnecting the Main Earth Conductor from the rest of the installation for the measurement of Ze.
As there is no such conductor, that's not surprising. ;)
Hmmm. No pedantic quibbles about terminology in my thread, please, even on a bank holiday :)

(also, see the post I'm about to write which indicates some usefulness of the 'main' qualification of 'earthing conductor'!)

Kind Regards, John
 
...you make no mention, although I have no doubt that you did do it, of disconnecting the Main Earth Conductor from the rest of the installation for the measurement of Ze.
As there is no such conductor, that's not surprising. ;)
Hmmm. No pedantic quibbles about terminology in my thread, please, even on a bank holiday :)

(also, see the post I'm about to write which indicates some usefulness of the 'main' qualification of 'earthing conductor'!)

Kind Regards, John

If your terminology is incorrect you will never learn. The poor understanding of practically every electrician in the land, of practically every important element of his work is often directly caused by the use of incorrect terms.

I see this to be true every working day of my life with 99% of the better electricians out there- the ones who know enough to know they do not know enough and are willing to be educated. The rest? Gawd 'elp us!
 
... NAPIT requires a measured value for Zs on their EIC.
That's very irresponsible of them, in view of Regulation 14 of the EAWR 1989.
Have a chat with their helpline and ask them if they would accept two measurements added together. ;)
I take that to indicate that you agree with me that directly measuring the value of Zs (with parallel paths to earth present) is essentially pointless, particularly (but not exclusively) awith a TT system. Try as I may, I cannot see the point in my measuring and recording a 'Zs' of under 1Ω, when I know (and also record) that the 'true' Zs (excluding parallel paths) is closer to 80Ω.

There is one slight complication with my installation. We have been saying that 'true' Zs is calculated as Ze+R1+R2. That is obvioulsy true, by definition, provided that one has the appropriate value for Ze. The measurement of Ze to which I was referring was that I get when I disconnect the ('main') earthing conductor from the ('main') MET and measure just the earth electrode (via the earthing conductor). That's fine in relation to the part of my installation which originates close to the MET. However, there are several sub-mains to 'distant' CUs/DBs, and the (R1+R2) for final circuits from those CUs will be measured just from the CU in question. Hence, if I use the Ze I've just mentioned, Zs is actually Ze+Zx+R1+R2, where 'Zx' is the impedance of the conductor between the ('main') MET to the ('non-main') earthing terminal at the sub-main CU.

I suppose that, stricly speaking, I should measure Ze at the 'non-M'ET at the distant CU. With a bit of fiddling, I could include that extra conductor in the path (but keep parallel paths disconnected) when I measure Ze. I could also actually measure 'Zx' and add it on. In reality, with a TT system it's almost totally irrelevant, since the tiny resistance/impedance of that cable (i.e. 'Zx') is negligible compared with the earth electrode resistance/impedance.

Indeed, in practice with a TT system (where 'true Ze' swamps everything else) one approach (engineeringly sound, but probably not acceptable to bureaucracy) would be to measure the 'silly' Zs (with parallel paths present), use that as an over-estimate of (R1+R2) and add it on to Ze (measured at the 'main' MET) to get a (slight) over-estimate of 'true Zs' - without having to directly measure (R1+R2).

Kind Regards, John.
 

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