Part P and getting domestic DIY work certified

PJP

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Hi,

we are going to fit a new shower installation to our bathroom in the next month or so and have been read the regulations surrounding this type of work.

from this i have interpreted that:-

a) we can do the work ourselves, being homeowners, as long as we tell our local building planning office

b) the work requires checking afterwards by a NICEIC qualified electrician

We have asked a couple of companies if they would certify the work as ok after installation and they said that they cannot certify domestic clients, the work needs to be checked/certified by the local building regulations body (presuamably the same people who we tell we are doing the work) in our area.

Are the above (a and b) correct and also is it the local planning office that check the work or not...as we are not 100% sure of the procedure surrounding this....
 
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try searchin. part p has been done to death
 
I quite agree, but at present am trying to do my degree work and havent got time to browse through endless posts...

sorry....not trying to be lazy.. just need a straight answer.
 
PJP said:
I quite agree, but at present am trying to do my degree work and havent got time to browse through endless posts...

sorry....not trying to be lazy.. just need a straight answer.

if people kept asking yu the same question, because they couldnt be arsed to find the answer elsewhere, you'd soon get sick of it.
 
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PJP said:
Hi,

we are going to fit a new shower installation to our bathroom in the next month or so and have been read the regulations surrounding this type of work.

from this i have interpreted that:-

a) we can do the work ourselves, being homeowners, as long as we tell our local building planning office
Correct.

b) the work requires checking afterwards by a NICEIC qualified electrician
Incorrect. I don't know what you have read, but there is no regulation which says that.

We have asked a couple of companies if they would certify the work as ok after installation and they said that they cannot certify domestic clients, the work needs to be checked/certified by the local building regulations body (presuamably the same people who we tell we are doing the work) in our area.
They are correct, but unfortunately most LABCs are refusing to do what the law says and what the ODPM advises.

I'm reposting this, not because I don't agree with what Andy says, but because I've just updated it.

. . . . .
divider2a.GIF



DIY Electrical work and the law

On January 1st 2005 legislation came into effect which brought electrical work in dwellings under the Building Regulations, and made it a controlled service. This amendment to the Building Regulations, known as "Part P", imposes safety requirements, and also classifies electrical installation work into two basic categories, notifiable and non-notifiable.

Essentially the distinction is between major work, or work in what are deemed high-risk areas such as kitchens, bathrooms and gardens, and minor work such as replacing switches or adding sockets to existing circuits. (NB to those with a knowledge of the IEE Wiring Regulations, the term "minor work" is used here in its generic sense rather than the meaning defined in the Wiring Regs.)

A very important and fundamental point to note is that DIY electrical work has not been outlawed. It has been brought within the remit of the Building Regulations and cannot be carried out as freely as it was before, and in many cases cannot be carried out without involving your local council, but you may still DIY.

Major work is classed as notifiable, i.e. it must be notified to your Local Authority's Building Control department (LABC). How this happens depends on who does it.

If the work is carried out by an electrician who is registered with one of the organisations who administer self-certification schemes, (sometimes referred to as "Competent Person" schemes) they carry out the work and report the details to their scheme organiser, who then notify the appropriate LABC that the work has taken place, and that it has been certified by the person who carried it out as being in compliance with the Building Regulations. You may be familiar with this method of operation if you have ever had windows replaced by a FENSA member.

If the work is carried out by someone who is not registered with one of the schemes, be they an electrician or another type of tradesman (e.g. kitchen fitter) who has chosen not to register, or a DIYer, then it must be notified to LABC in advance in the same way that any building work which requires their involvement is notified in advance. And just like when you are building an extension, or converting a loft, etc, there is a fee payable to LABC to cover their activities related to checking compliance with the Building Regulations. (But see "LABC Issues" below regarding this).

Another important point to note is that apart from a Building Inspector, nobody can certify someone else's work as being compliant with the Building Regulations. Unless arranged by or in cooperation with LABC, a 3rd party electrical inspection is of no value in terms of complying with the law.

The full text of the legislation can be found here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2004/20043210.htm and it is worth making the effort to read it, and understand it, because there is a lot of misinformation on the Internet, some of it put out by organisations with a vested interest in pretending that DIY work is illegal, some of it by LABCs who have either misunderstood the legislation, or who are also attempting to mislead the public in order to reduce the amount of work notified to them by non-self-certifying people, some of it, surprisingly, by the ODPM themselves (The Office of the Deputy Prime Minister were responsible for the legislation), and much of it on electrical advice and discussion fora like this one.

At the time of writing (September 2005), the following work was classed as not needing notification to LABC:

[code:1]1. Work consisting of -

(a) replacing any socket-outlet, control switch or ceiling
rose;

(b) replacing a damaged cable for a single circuit only;

(c) re-fixing or replacing enclosures of existing
installation components, where the circuit
protective measures are unaffected;

(d) providing mechanical protection to an existing
fixed installation, where the circuit protective
measures and current carrying capacity of
conductors are unaffected by the increased thermal
insulation.


2. Work which -

(a) is not in a kitchen, or a special location,

(b) does not involve work on a special installation, and

(c) consists of -


(i) adding light fittings and switches to an
existing circuit;

(ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an
existing ring or radial circuit; or

(iii) installing or upgrading main or supplementary
equipotential bonding.


3. Work on -

(a) telephone wiring or extra-low voltage wiring for the
purposes of communications, information technology,
signalling, control and similar purposes, where the
wiring is not in a special location;

(b) equipment associated with the wiring referred to in
sub-paragraph (a).
[/code:1]
The terms "kitchen", "special installation" and "special location" are defined in the legislation.

Like any law, things can change, and you are urged to ensure that you make yourself familiar with the law as it stands now, not necessarily as it was when this document was written.

The starting point on the ODPM website for information related to Building Regulations is http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/gro...ments/sectionhomepage/odpm_buildreg_page.hcsp and a list of the relevant legislation can be found at http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_600270.hcsp .

It is in the nature of the Internet for sites to change, and it may well be that today, when you are reading this, the links above no longer work, and you will have to search for the pages you want.


Useful Information

On the ODPM website there are a number of "Approved Documents"
( http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/divisionhomepage/br0041.hcsp ). These are not definitions of the law, nor do they tell you what you must, or must not, do. Instead they give guidance on ways in which the law can be satisfied. They do point out that you are not obliged to adopt any solution contained in them if you prefer to meet the requirements in another way, but that said they are useful as they contain common sense advice and often there is no good reason not to adopt the solutions they contain.

Approved Document P can be found here: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_br1007.pdf .


Technical Requirements

The technical requirements laid down by Part P are remarkably simple. They are:

  1. Reasonable provision shall be made in the design, installation, inspection and testing of electrical installations in order to protect persons from fire or injury.
  2. Sufficient information shall be provided so that persons wishing to operate, maintain or alter an electrical installation can do so with reasonable safety.
It is worth noting however that they apply to all work, not just notifiable work, no matter who does it. So a DIYer adding a socket or a fused spur to a ring final circuit must work to the same technical standards as a registered electrician doing a complete rewire.

The biggest practical issue that arises is testing. To carry out testing of electrical circuits requires expertise and equipment, neither of which are likely to possessed by the average DIYer. So although Part P allows a DIYer to replace an entire circuit cable if it is damaged, without notification, it is arguable that he could not be sure that he had done it properly unless he carried out a series of tests on it, something he would probably be unable to do.


The IEE Wiring Regulations, aka BS 7671

Surprisingly, perhaps, Part P does not alter the status of the Wiring Regulations. They are still non-statutory, and there is still no legal requirement to adhere to them in domestic installations. This is a source of great discomfort to many electricians, and some of them will jump through hoops to try and prove that they are mandatory, but the fact remains that they are not.

HOWEVER, adherence to them is a very good way of ensuring that you meet the technical requirements of Part P, and you would need a very good reason, and a very good understanding of what you were doing, to decide to not adhere to them.


LABC Issues

As mentioned above, some LABCs are spreading misinformation, either by accident or design, about the status and acceptability of electrical work done by DIYers or other non-registered people.

These include:

1) Stating that such persons simply cannot carry out notifiable work, and that it must be done by registered electricians. The legislation referenced above, Statutory Instrument 2004 No. 3210 The Building (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2004 makes it quite clear that this is not the case. LABCs are not allowed to refuse to process Building Notices submitted by non-registered people.


2) Stating that work carried out by a non-registered person must be inspected and tested by someone who is registered, or who they regard as qualified. Again, there is no mention of this requirement in the statutory instrument.

Recently the ODPM issued a circular to local authorities making it absolutely clear that they are not allowed to do this:

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1131042

Unfortunately, many LABCs are simply ignoring what the ODPM say, and persisting with their policy of requiring DIYers or other non-registered people to hire someone to inspect and test the work. The ODPM's position on this appears to be that if you are being told this by your LABC you should take them to court.


3) Attempting to impose extra charges to cover the inspection and testing of work done by a non-registered person. An LABC may well elect to subcontract inspection and testing if they do not have the capacity to do it themselves, but they are not allowed to charge extra because of this – the cost to them of subcontracting must be borne by them

Individual local authorities co-ordinate their services regionally and nationally (and provide a range of national approval schemes) via LABC Services. (http://www.labc-services.co.uk).

I recently posed LABC services the following question:

"My local Building Control dept has told me that because of staffing problems they are unable to inspect some building work, and will have to sub-contract it, and that I will therefore have to pay this cost on top of their fees.

Are they allowed to do this?
"

Their reply was:

"Building Regulation fees are set to a scale that embraces the whole scope of what may be necessary in respect of checking and approving the plans and inspecting the work. The input necessary can vary according to the circumstances of a specific scheme, but the fees are not variable due to this feature.

The local authority has a legal duty to carry out the Building Regulation function to a proper degree. This can also vary in extent according to the demands of any scheme and considerable discretion rests with the authority. However they are responsible to give a proper service within the fee and cannot charge extra for the reason you mention. Indeed if they failed to inspect yet still charged you might have a case for a refund
."
 
Thanks for your help, much appreciated....

very interesting reading......


sorry...will try and be less lazy in future....
 
Ban all sheds...

Having digested the above docs and links, I see there is a lot of "interpretation" to be taken in to account. The law certainly seems to limit exactly what DIY's can do. I expect plumbing will be the next target.

I also conversed with the LABC who have suggested that although I would have to declare my shower instalation to them, the actual testing of my new install (to comply with Part-P) can be done by a qualified (to BS7671) competent electrician for "minor work".

And that I would have to get the same electrician to fill out a "minor works
certificate"......


They suggested that they themsleves (LABC) could not actually carry out the check, as they probably didnt have an officer qualified to check installations at present.....
 
That information they have given you is not correct. A 'minor electrical installation works certificate' as it clearly states at the top "To be used only for minor electrical work which does not include the provision of a new circuit" will not be enough as this is a new circuit and needs full test certification.
 
As I suspected....and mainly the reason why I had posted this, thanks BJS_Spark.


I am finding this whole DIY scenario a pain now. The LABC say get a qualified electrician, the qualified electrician (NICEIC) say they cannot check my work, go see the LABC...the law says this and that....

I think it would be easier not to fit the damn thing after all...
 
PJP said:

... are a commercial outfit, not a governement organisation of any sort. There are loads of organisations who do the same sort of thing. NICEIC seems to have a propaganda campaign to spread the myth that to be a qualified electrician you need to be a NICEIC memeber. It's just not true.
 
NICEIC was only an example....sorry

The only course of action I can see here is to declare my work to the LABC, tell them it needs inspecting and then get them to hire the appropriately "qualified" electrician to check the work....and stay out of it...
 
This thread is now steering towards a question that i'm (still) not clear on w.r.t part p.

We know from the the Building Regs themselves, and confirmation in the ODPM circular, the the LABC have an obligation to ensure compliance with the building regulations. And they must do this, or pay for it, themselves.

However, if, as a DIY'er, I rewire my house, and complete the design and construct parts of the (3 part version of the) EIC, but NOT the testing part, are the LABC obliged to test the installation and thus complete the testing part of the EIC?

I'm not sure they do. They only need to ensure compliance with the building regs, not compliance with the wiring regs (which would require someone to test the installation and complete the testing section of the EIC).

Now it follows that compliance with the Building regulations:-

ban-all-sheds said:
  1. Reasonable provision shall be made in the design, installation, inspection and testing of electrical installations in order to protect persons from fire or injury.
  2. Sufficient information shall be provided so that persons wishing to operate, maintain or alter an electrical installation can do so with reasonable safety.

... would definately be satisfied by an installation that meets BS 7671, but surely the LABC could either:-

- perform their own testing or inspection that has nothing to do with a BS 7671 test & inspect

or

- sub contract an electrician to do a PIR and keep the results for themselves


In my understanding, both of those solutions would fulfil the obligations of part P, but the DIY'er would be left with an incomplete EIC, which is not desirable for a whole bunch of reasons.

I hope i'm missing something. Thoughts and comments, anyone?
 
PJP said:
I also conversed with the LABC who have suggested that although I would have to declare my shower instalation to them, the actual testing of my new install (to comply with Part-P) can be done by a qualified (to BS7671) competent electrician for "minor work".

And that I would have to get the same electrician to fill out a "minor works
certificate"......
As do so many LABCs.

It is going to be up to you to decide how much aggro you are prepared to get into by insisting to the LABC, with the help of the instructions on the ODPM website about this practice, that they are not allowed to do what they are doing.

If you are going to go along with them, then it will probably be cheaper overall to just have an electrician do the whole lot.

They suggested that they themsleves (LABC) could not actually carry out the check, as they probably didnt have an officer qualified to check installations at present.....
If you do decide to get combative with them, ask them what the **** they did in the 2 years and 3 months interval between the publication of the proposal to use LABC for testing and it actually coming into force....
 
I know its off topic, but a work collegue has had a similar "farce" with the local authority due to building an extension and finding it is in close proximity to beech trees... :LOL:

We note in the "building regulations submission form" that it stipulates that DIY work cannot be quoted for....and that the LABC wont process a submission unless a quote has been given....

GO FIGURE!!!
 
ban-all-sheds said:
[2) Stating that work carried out by a non-registered person must be inspected and tested by someone who is registered, or who they regard as qualified. Again, there is no mention of this requirement in the statutory instrument.

Recently the ODPM issued a circular to local authorities making it absolutely clear that they are not allowed to do this:

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1131042

Unfortunately, many LABCs are simply ignoring what the ODPM say, and persisting with their policy of requiring DIYers or other non-registered people to hire someone to inspect and test the work. The ODPM's position on this appears to be that if you are being told this by your LABC you should take them to court.


ban-all-sheds said:
It is insignificant because ODPM guidelines are not the law, and have no legal significance.

Maybe we shouldnt be so hasty in getting to court after all?
 

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