are patio heaters ethically acceptable?

Ennui · 23 Sep 2014

As as a protaginist in this discussion, I recognise JohnW2's openess and his rather neutral perspective.
I, of course, am a non-smoker, or even a reformed smoker, albeit, it was over forty years ago, but I guess you all realised that I'm a non-smoker.

Sadly, when I were a lad, I would have a fag, hanging out of my bedroom window, thinking that my parents would never realise. (Neither of them smoked)
When I'd quit, I could smell cigarrette smoke fom 10 metres away, in the open air!
I could walk past an empty bus-stop and tell if someone had been waiting there, smoking!

I've just had an epiphany moment.
Since the demise of one of us, of me and my siblings, the two older ones still smoke, the two younger ones don't. Sadly, it was the youngest of us, that was a smoker and departed this mortal coil, first.

Whitespirit66 · 23 Sep 2014

jockscott said:
I remember a pub opening in Edinburgh many years before we had the smoking ban in public buildings. The owner claimed it was going to be the first non smoking pub in the country. Less than 4 months after opening, he relented and allowed smoking throughout, simply because the expected crowds of non smokers , never materialised. Had he let it remain as a non smoking pub (when all the others allowed it) he'd have gone out of business. We now have the case that approximately 30 odd pubs are closing every week. Most never to re-open as a hostelry. I know that the smoking ban isn't wholly to blame for this, but I'm sure it hasn't helped.

Having a non smoking pub that almost went bust sounds about right. Many pubs are like that now. Before the ban came in, the press was full of people who said they would be flocking to the new, smoke-free pub environments.

Well, I only noticed one rush of people, that was smokers leaving pubs in droves, Then many non smokers also left pubs because the pubs were often too quiet and the 'buzz' that makes pubs appealing had also gone. There never was a stampede of non-smokers, and as a result pubs are closing all over the country.

Ennui · 23 Sep 2014

LastMagicBean said:
Many, many pubs took up the experiment of separate bars for smoking before the legislation came into play. It simply didn't work, so was therefore abandoned.

The reason it didn't work, was that the separation of the smokers from the non-smokers was severely detrimental to the landlords initial plans.

Rather than a happy division, they found that the complaining anti smokers were joining the smokers in the public bar (because that's where all the good people were) and the lounge bar was empty. Hypocrisy was rife.

It was a pointless exercise.

Maybe the smokers were the party animals...............
Entertaining but toxic.

Whitespirit66 · 23 Sep 2014

LastMagicBean said:
Rather than a happy division, they found that the complaining anti smokers were joining the smokers in the public bar (because that's where all the good people were) and the lounge bar was empty. Hypocrisy was rife.

Agree. The best 'craic' is often to be found out on my local's smoking deck. Even non-smokers go out there for the banter.

Ennui · 23 Sep 2014

Whitespirit66 said:
Having a non smoking pub that almost went bust sounds about right.

I don't think that was the only motivator.
There was drink/driving, alcohol awarness, and cheaper booze to drink at home available, plus the pressure on personal expenditure.

Ennui · 23 Sep 2014

Whitespirit66 said:
LastMagicBean said:

Rather than a happy division, they found that the complaining anti smokers were joining the smokers in the public bar (because that's where all the good people were) and the lounge bar was empty. Hypocrisy was rife.

Click to expand...

Agree. The best 'craic' is often to be found out on my local's smoking deck. Even non-smokers go out there for the banter.

See above comment.
Maybe there's a link between being a smoker and having a sense of humour.

Whitespirit66 · 23 Sep 2014

Two things to note:-

1) Before the ban came in, we were promised (politicians and their promises

) pubs that could have designated smoking bars/rooms/areas.

2) Other countries still allow smoking in pubs, with vary restrictions, eg. Czech Rep. - pubs can either be totally smoking or non, Poland - pubs over a certain sq. footage can have a designated smoking area, Germany - seems to more or less please itself, but many pubs are completely smoking. Needless to say, the pubs in these three countries are busy and thriving.

Ennui · 23 Sep 2014

Whitespirit66 said:
Two things to note:-

1) Before the ban came in, we were promised (politicians and their promises ) pubs that could have designated smoking bars/rooms/areas.

2) Other countries still allow smoking in pubs, with vary restrictions, eg. Czech Rep. - pubs can either be totally smoking or non, Poland - pubs over a certain sq. footage can have a designated smoking area, Germany - seems to more or less please itself, but many pubs are completely smoking. Needless to say, the pubs in these three countries are busy and thriving.

OK, do I need to search on your previous comments to find a post of yours to suggest how backward Eastern European countries are?
In addition, most pubs that you describe in germany are more like restaurants, there aen't really pubs as such in germany.

Whitespirit66 · 23 Sep 2014

Ennui said:
Whitespirit66 said:

Having a non smoking pub that almost went bust sounds about right.

Click to expand...

I don't think that was the only motivator.
There was drink/driving, alcohol awarness, and cheaper booze to drink at home available, plus the pressure on personal expenditure.

We've had drink driving laws since the 60s, and recessions are a regular thing. These two factors can't be blamed, because pubs were usually busy up until the late 90s, early 2000s. At least 30 years or more after the drink driving laws came in. Even in desperate times (late 70s/early 80s) the pubs were busy.

Whitespirit66 · 23 Sep 2014

Ennui said:
Whitespirit66 said:

Two things to note:-

1) Before the ban came in, we were promised (politicians and their promises ) pubs that could have designated smoking bars/rooms/areas.

2) Other countries still allow smoking in pubs, with vary restrictions, eg. Czech Rep. - pubs can either be totally smoking or non, Poland - pubs over a certain sq. footage can have a designated smoking area, Germany - seems to more or less please itself, but many pubs are completely smoking. Needless to say, the pubs in these three countries are busy and thriving.

Click to expand...

OK, do I need to search on your previous comments to find a post of yours to suggest how backward Eastern European countries are?

P*ss off you troll.

You can search you muppet, but you'll find nothing. First, these countries aren't in Eastern Europe.

Secondly, I regularly visit CZ and Poland, which are in a much better position than us, as they're not importing half the third world like we are. They're on the up, we're going down. You're totally clueless.

So grow up and find something better to do.

Ennui · 23 Sep 2014

Whitespirit66 said:
We've had drink driving laws since the 60s, and recessions are a regular thing. These two factors can't be blamed, because pubs were usually busy up until the late 90s, early 2000s. At least 30 years or more after the drink driving laws came in. Even in desperate times (late 70s/early 80s) the pubs were busy.

Combinations of circumstances are a wierd and wonderful thing.

Ennui · 23 Sep 2014

Whitespirit66 said:
Ennui said:

Whitespirit66 said:

Two things to note:-

1) Before the ban came in, we were promised (politicians and their promises ) pubs that could have designated smoking bars/rooms/areas.

2) Other countries still allow smoking in pubs, with vary restrictions, eg. Czech Rep. - pubs can either be totally smoking or non, Poland - pubs over a certain sq. footage can have a designated smoking area, Germany - seems to more or less please itself, but many pubs are completely smoking. Needless to say, the pubs in these three countries are busy and thriving.

Click to expand...

OK, do I need to search on your previous comments to find a post of yours to suggest how backward Eastern European countries are?

Click to expand...

P*ss off you troll.

You can search you muppet, but you'll find nothing. First, these countries aren't in Eastern Europe.

Secondly, I regularly visit CZ and Poland, which are in a much better position than us, as they're not importing half the third world like we are.

So grow up and find something better to do.

My oh my, you turned from a reasonable debater to an unreasonable insulting person. Is it the lateness of the hour, or the amount of imbibing one has done?

JBR · 23 Sep 2014

jockscott said:
I remember a pub opening in Edinburgh many years before we had the smoking ban in public buildings. The owner claimed it was going to be the first non smoking pub in the country. Less than 4 months after opening, he relented and allowed smoking throughout, simply because the expected crowds of non smokers , never materialised. Had he let it remain as a non smoking pub (when all the others allowed it) he'd have gone out of business. We now have the case that approximately 30 odd pubs are closing every week. Most never to re-open as a hostelry. I know that the smoking ban isn't wholly to blame for this, but I'm sure it hasn't helped.

That reminds my of what must have been the first, or at least one of the first, no-smoking pubs. That was a pub in Appletreewick in Yorkshire and would have been in the early 1970s.

My mates and I (all smokers in those days) had heard about it and went to investigate. The landlord's wife had, sadly, died of cancer which was thought to be related to her smoking, and the landlord had started a one-man campaign to discourage smoking.

What he did was to ask visitors to sample a special 'brew' of his own making (and which he would then sell, cheaply, to those who wanted to give up the weed). He'd give you a mouthful of the stuff, which was some sort of mouthwash, and you had to keep it in your mouth for a minute and then spit it out. You were then invited to light up and try to smoke. The result was such a foul taste that it was impossible to continue. I was very impressed with its effectiveness.

I must add that the pub was virtually empty and the neighbouring pub where we went to afterwards was heaving. I don't know what happened, but several years later the poor chap wasn't there any more. I felt very sorry for him and can well understand his motivations.

JBR · 23 Sep 2014

Whitespirit66 said:
Two things to note:-

1) Before the ban came in, we were promised (politicians and their promises ) pubs that could have designated smoking bars/rooms/areas.

2) Other countries still allow smoking in pubs, with vary restrictions, eg. Czech Rep. - pubs can either be totally smoking or non, Poland - pubs over a certain sq. footage can have a designated smoking area, Germany - seems to more or less please itself, but many pubs are completely smoking. Needless to say, the pubs in these three countries are busy and thriving.

Yes, exactly what I have found.

Funny, isn't it, how whilst other countries just ignore EU diktats if they don't agree with them, we meekly kow-tow to them.

Ennui · 24 Sep 2014

JBR said:
Whitespirit66 said:

Two things to note:-

1) Before the ban came in, we were promised (politicians and their promises ) pubs that could have designated smoking bars/rooms/areas.

2) Other countries still allow smoking in pubs, with vary restrictions, eg. Czech Rep. - pubs can either be totally smoking or non, Poland - pubs over a certain sq. footage can have a designated smoking area, Germany - seems to more or less please itself, but many pubs are completely smoking. Needless to say, the pubs in these three countries are busy and thriving.

Click to expand...

Yes, exactly what I have found.

Funny, isn't it, how whilst other countries just ignore EU diktats if they don't agree with them, we meekly kow-tow to them.

I assume that you and whitespirit have little experience of life in EU because pubs "as you know it" don't exist "jim".
So just how are you comparing like with like?

are patio heaters ethically acceptable?

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