adding socket from shower

andrew.coates · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:54 pm Post Subject: adding socket from shower

Hi

I am wanting to add a socket from the shower circuit. Can I do this?

Spark123 · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:13 pm Post Subject:

As a rule of thumb, no. The circuit is likely to have been designed only to feed a shower, the additional load put on it from a socket which is variable can overload the circuit. Better looking for a ring main/radial circuit.

andrew.coates · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:39 pm Post Subject: shower again

Hi there

Thank-you for the reply; I appreciate that it might overload the circuit but is the only available circuit from the loft.

The socket I am introducing, is for a bedroom on the wall next to the ceiling to provide power to a TV and DVD player on a bracket; is this likely to overload the shower circuit?

cheers

andy

Pens · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:29 pm Post Subject:

As it's been said on here, it's really bad practice to do this. You would need to ensure the cable to your socket is the same size as the one feeding your shower which may be up to 10mm. This mabe hard to get into the shower switch as the terminals may be to small, it's problems all the way.

james 29 · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:19 pm Post Subject:

As the guys said it is bad practice but I think it can be done with the following precautions:

Tong the shower on load and find its max current.

Check the cable and breaker size.

If for example a 10mm cable is present and your shower pulls 30 amp, (dont know your rating)install a 5 amp FCU for the new socket. The 10mm could more than handle it. Cant see the dvd and tv taking more than this. Label the fcu for tv dvd socket only.

As long as each cable branch is fused correctly the only danger that can occur is the breaker coming out on overload. If you have the shower on and the tvand dvd player full loading and you reach an overload situation, the 10 mm is still protected by a correct mcb rating, and the 1.5/2,5 to the socket cant induce more than the 5 amp plus conventional trip threshold will allow.

In short, it isnot hazardous in my opinion and if it doesnt trip the shower circuit breaker its fine.

On a PIR if i saw that situation i would just label it as number of points served 2. Be sure to label at the board and at the socket aswell though.

Qedelec · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:30 pm Post Subject:

James, what if the cable is only 6mm and someone comes along later and plugs an electric fire in, Oh its blown the fuse lets put a bigger one in....

NOT good practice and should be avoided.

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james 29 · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:48 pm Post Subject:

Qedelec,

I think we try to legislate too much for people, if you plug a heater into the socket the 5 amp fuse would blow. If they change the fuse when it is labelled tv and dvd socket to a higher one they are morons, but it would mean the fuse in the cu would go first. There is no risk to the cabling in my view.

More and more regs come in which in time there will be total standardization of installation methods to stop people being inventive and using multiple methods and making the job slightly more interesting.

The shower feed is a radial circuit serving one point. If you branch off and fuse correctly, even if they install a 13a fuse in the fcu to run a heater from the socket, a 2.5 can handle the load to the socket, plus, if the 6mm or 10mm radial which feeds this and the shower couldnt, the 30 or 32a in the cu would trip. Each branch takes a load which it is capable of handling, still no hazard though.

PompeySparks · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:01 pm Post Subject:

Sorry have to agree with QED on this - very bad practice and could be dangerous - if somebody turns off the 'upstairs sockets' and doesn't confirm each socket is de-energised then they could inavertantly work on this socket. Even if you label the socket somebody could replace with a new socket later!

Reg 314-01-01

And that's just a start...

james 29 · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:38 pm Post Subject:

Ok guys see your point, but your threads are based on human error or tampering. I am speaking from an operational point of view.

I wouldnt say it contravenes 314-01-01 either as it would be labelled at the cu. Some houses have wall lights in alcoves fed from the lighting circuit. Others are from fused spurs. I dont turn the lighting circuit off and think its definately dead. If you do not prove a circuit correctly prior to working on it, that contravenes electricity at work regs and bs 7671. If the ring was isolated and you automatically grabbed the terminals of the socket you have contravened safe isolation and proving procedures not the circuit. Any resulting injury would be caused by adopting short cut methods. If you proved it correctly you would look at your voltage tester which would show a voltage present, go back to the cu for another look and see Shower/Tv socket labelled.

I also assume he meant at high level which would give it a new feel as opposed to a ring.

Still cant see a problem with it

PompeySparks · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:04 pm Post Subject:

Seeing lighting circuits taken from mains (and sadly vice-versa) is a common situation which most people would be looking out for. A socket off of the shower circuit is more unusual! Safe isolation should always be carried out but in the real world where people make human errors in a rush, it is not.

You could argue against 314-01-01 applying or not but to ignore it in this situation is certainly going against the spirit of BS7671.

If you ever came to sell the property and needed a periodical inspection done then I can guarentee that you would find a multitude of different opinions (depending on who does the PIR) but not many electricians would find this arrangement to be totally satisfactory!

Also see 130-07-01 - Even if the circuit can take the load of the shower and 13A socket now then what happens next time somebody fits a new shower and only looks at the circuit breaker and cable size to determine the max load of the new shower?

james 29 · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:39 pm Post Subject:

I understand where your coming from pompey, what i am trying to point out is because its not standard doesnt make it wrong.

In most houses there are lovely plastered walls which is a massive headache and upheaval to start running extra feeds back to boards or sockets. He is looking at a situation where he would need absolute minimal fuss. In this situation what is the point in running a new circuit when there is a shower cable probably way over what it needs next to where he needs a supply which would offer no headache.

In the event someone installed a new shower they would see the label at the cu stating TV/DVD skt also. If not what is it that frightens you. As i am new to the forum i have never read a thread on this scenario. I dont know what concerns were raised previously but would be interested to.The WORST that could happen is that the circuit would trip on overload. The cable would not suffer any damage because it would be protected adequately by conventional trip method. You can not damage either cable on overload. Then you would either increase the breaker if the cable could handle it or disconnect the socket if it happened persistently and there was no spare capacity in the cable.

I bet he wishes he never sent this post lol

pdcelec · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:46 pm Post Subject:

Why not go the whole hog and install a copper busbar up the middle of the house and tap everything off it. This way you would only need 1 fuse at the cu. Future additions would then be simple

realman · Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:07 pm Post Subject: Re: adding socket from shower

andrew.coates wrote:

Hi

I am wanting to add a socket from the shower circuit. Can I do this?

if you want your house to melt go a head! shower cable is 10mm thick and can have a breaker of up to 63A fitting a socket on this circuit is a big no no

jondiy · Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:28 pm Post Subject:

Why not find a socket in the bedroom , spur with 2.5mm down to under the floorboards , along the floorboards, then back up the wall in the corner of the room with a nice piece of mini trunking , then pop the cable up into the loft space, and then come back down with it at the point near your tv, and terminate in a nice surface mount double socket.

There you have your new socket, with minimal fuss, and it wont look too out of place! And its a hell of a lot safer.

ban-all-sheds · Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:16 am Post Subject: Re: adding socket from shower

realman wrote:

if you want your house to melt go a head! shower cable is 10mm thick and can have a breaker of up to 63A fitting a socket on this circuit is a big no no

What kind of nonsense is that theory?

As for (most of) the rest of the posts here...

Somebody could..

Somebody could..

Somebody could..

There is absolutely nothing you can install where it couldn't be said "Ah yes, but somebody could...".

If you worry about all possible future actions that people could do in flagrant disregard of common sense, safe working practices and clearly labelled circuits then you'd not have electricity in peoples' homes at all.

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