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German Oven Installation

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CarlD

from United Kingdom

Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 1
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:54 am Reply with quote

Hi,

I've just moved into a new apartment in Germany and i am having a few problems working out their wiring systems.

The main problem is the junction box for wiring in the oven. It appears to have three live wires (on three separate fuses in the mains box) and one negative wire. What is confusing me is that the wires look to be 13 amp types, and appear way to thin to take the current drawn by the oven. Back in the UK the oven was on a 30amp line. I'm not sure what the rating of the oven is, but the thickness of the cables indicates its a fair wattage. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance, Carl
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IanDB

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 754
Location: Dorset,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:51 pm Reply with quote

This is going to be no help what so ever. If this was France then you'd just get some insulating tape and wind the whole lot up and carry on but I assume that the German wiring standards may be a little higher than that.
When you talk about the junction box I assume you mean the unit on the wall that the oven will connect to?
I have never done any wiring in Germany so you have nothing to fear on this account but when you say there are three separately fused wires (presumably live) and one neutral going to this point it all sounds a bit dodgy. You can get the equivalent of 30 A if all three are joined together but then the neutral should be suitably thicker in order to take the return current, but all that is highly dangerous so ignore it. icon_exclaim.gif Alternatively the unit that was there before that could have been split into three sub-units running at, say 10A each - hence the three wires. I'm still worried about the single neutral though & I'm pretty sure that they don't have three phase ovens on the domestic market!
What is the current rating of the unit you're trying to wire in? German electricity supply is 220v ac.
If in any doubt I seriously recommend getting getting someone in with some local knowledge. It's worth spending a few euros and knowing that it's safe.
When you find out how it goes, post a reply - all the best and I hope you get it fixed in time to roast the turkey!
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breezer

from United Kingdom

Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 23328
Location: Sussex,
United Kingdom
Thanked: 26 times

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:02 pm Reply with quote

i would have to agree, although we all try and give help this is a U.K. based forum, and as such we can only give advice regarding the U.K. (electrical) unless you are as "yankey-sparkey" an american Electrican, who posts on here regarding american electrical things.

What may be acceptable here may not be over there. best get a local electrician
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IanDB

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 754
Location: Dorset,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:50 pm Reply with quote

Interesting what comes up to the surface now and again. Having looked back though some links and previous questions it appears that some european countries do have three phase wiring in houses. I'm no expert in this field. I've had a look on the web but have failed to find out how to wire up a house in Germany!

Incidentally the cooker mentioned in despatches under Appliances/duel fuel cooker gives three phase supply as an option:-

[url]http://uk.pricerunner.com/home-appliances/cookers/157998/details

So, you live and learn. Now. It comes back to what sort of of oven you are trying to connect. There should be specification label round the back of it somewhere showing the power consumption. If it is a single phase unit and in the 6Kw + range you need a 30A supply. If it's a three phase unit then it only needs 10A per phase however this comes with a severe health warning. Three phase systems are not for the amateur, there is a danger of DEATH if you get it wrong icon_exclaim.gif 400v between phases and you've got a fused supply not MCB. Definitely get local advice.
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poleczech

from Germany

Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 1
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:57 pm Reply with quote

I've got the same problem and need some help.

Thanks,

Shannon
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IanDB

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 754
Location: Dorset,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:03 am Reply with quote

No, we never did get an answer on that one. Either CarlD put his fingers across the phases or got someone else to install it. icon_eek.gif

If you have got a three phase oven it is quite simple to wire up. You have three live wires and one neutral. They should just connect "pin for pin". If you have a user manual it should be quite clearly explained in there as we are all bound by EC regulations for safety.

I am used to working with three phase systems but I have never seen a German installation, I have never wired in a three phase oven before, don't know what your piece of kit looks like etc, etc. What I'm saying (and repeating from before) is, if in any doubt what so ever get a local engineer to have a look. It really can make a big bang if you get it wrong - or worse! icon_surprised.gif

Feel free to ask for some more info if needed. icon_smile.gif
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ela-su

from United Kingdom

Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 1
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:00 pm Reply with quote

i'm not sure if i can be of any help, especially as i'm not an electrician,but i remember my dad (who is german) mentioning that they have three phases in the house.
as i'm going over there next week, i'll try to solve the mystery, although i suspect that CarlD had his oven fixed a long time ago.
i'll keep you posted
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IanDB

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 754
Location: Dorset,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:48 am Reply with quote

Yes, it would be interesting to follow that one up. I'll watch this space icon_cool.gif
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AdamW

from Vatican City State

Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 6317
Location: Vatican City State
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:13 am Reply with quote

If we started to get domestic 3-phase installations in the UK, imagine the electric showers we could have. Full on, high pressure, hot showers, instantaneously heated. And a 3-phase kettle could boil water in seconds, quick tea!

Now, let me see: say 30kW and 1 litre of water. That would boil in... 11 seconds? Nice.
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Big_Spark

from United Kingdom

Joined: 20 Feb 2004
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Location: United Kingdom
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:06 pm Reply with quote

CarlD, if you have a multimeter, the simple way to find out if it is true 3 phase is to measure the voltage between two of the "lives"

True 3 Phase will be 400V between any Phase (Live) conductors, but only 230V between any Phase(Live) conductor and Neutral or Earth.

The Germans do have 3 Phase supplies in many homes, just like the Netherlands and a number of other EU states.

Unless you really know what you are doing I would not suggest you mess with it, if you created a phase to phase fault, the resultant explasion will destroy any equipment attatched to the cable and likely seriuosly harm or kill anyone near enough to it. I would urge anyone with a 3 phase supply they need work done on to call a qualified electrician. 3 Phase does kill, and quickly.
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JayS

from United Kingdom

Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 127
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 2:11 pm Reply with quote

I've never worked in Germany, but used to work as an electrician in Sweden where the system is very much the same.

It's 3-phase for ovens in general, the reason is you can use 4x2.5mm2 (only 13A fuses) instead of 2x10mm2 (is that correct??) with one 30A fuse.

If it's a newly built house it should be:

Blue = neutral
brown = live (phase 1)
black = live (phase 2)
grey = live (phase 3)

In a older installation it could be:

Blue = neutral
brown = live (phase 1)
black = live (phase 2)
'white', black with a white strip on it = live (phase 3)

In either case green/yellow is earth!!!

3-phase wiring is pretty straight forward, but if you don't have any experience it might be better to get someone in to do it.


Last edited by JayS on Wed May 12, 2004 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total
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AdamW

from Vatican City State

Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 6317
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 3:20 pm Reply with quote

I have a great idea: what if instead of cooker plates, new houses came with a 3-phase socket? Then 3-phase ovens would come with a moulded 3-phase plug. Idiot-proof (although not gimp proof).

This could be a Europe-wide requirement, along with the proposed regulation demanding the confiscation of tools from anyone who believes it is acceptable to install a socket on a lighting circuit or a non-isolated outlet in a bathroom, or that a stupid little 2-pronged plug isn't a health-hazard.
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JayS

from United Kingdom

Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 127
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 3:33 pm Reply with quote

AdamW wrote:
I have a great idea: what if instead of cooker plates, new houses came with a 3-phase socket? Then 3-phase ovens would come with a moulded 3-phase plug. Idiot-proof (although not gimp proof).

This could be a Europe-wide requirement, along with the proposed regulation demanding the confiscation of tools from anyone who believes it is acceptable to install a socket on a lighting circuit or a non-isolated outlet in a bathroom, or that a stupid little 2-pronged plug isn't a health-hazard.
This is actually already a standard, used in Scandinavia. icon_wink.gif

Looks like this: http://www.elbutik.se/group.htm?category_id=1496
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AdamW

from Vatican City State

Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 6317
Location: Vatican City State
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 11:38 pm Reply with quote

Volvos, hardcore pron, now this. Is there anything these clever chaps can't do? icon_wink.gif

I am not sure of the styling of those plugs and sockets though, I was hoping for something more industrial such as, well, an industrial 3-phase plug! icon_biggrin.gif It is strange, but those plugs looked decidedly alien to me, they do just look like a 5-pin variant of the continental-type plug. Perhaps if it looked like a UK plug but 5-pin then it would seem easier to pallet!

Hmmm, Elbutik are stocking the new harmonised colour scheme for their twin and earth (although they have chosen the variant of using black for live, pah!). Must drop in and get some next time I am in Sweden. Buying some Volvos of course. That is all I do in Sweden. Yes, Volvos. icon_lol.gif

Just an edit: Doesn't the new colour scheme stipulate either blue brown and green/yellow, or black brown and grey? The Elbutik cable I mention appears black blue and green/yellow. icon_question.gif
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JayS

from United Kingdom

Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 127
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 8:22 am Reply with quote

AdamW wrote:

Hmmm, Elbutik are stocking the new harmonised colour scheme for their twin and earth (although they have chosen the variant of using black for live, pah!). Must drop in and get some next time I am in Sweden. Buying some Volvos of course. That is all I do in Sweden. Yes, Volvos. icon_lol.gif
Only thing?? What about the hardcore then?? icon_wink.gif

AdamW wrote:
Just an edit: Doesn't the new colour scheme stipulate either blue brown and green/yellow, or black brown and grey? The Elbutik cable I mention appears black blue and green/yellow. icon_question.gif


As I understand it you can use brown, black, or grey for the live in a single phase system. As a matter of fact if you have 3-phase in the house, and you connect up a single phase socket the live should be the same colour as the phase (hope I'm not being too confusing now...). E.g. black for L2. icon_cool.gif

Black, brown, grey is for a 3-phase delta connection (no return).
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