Air in Water Pipes?

stevec59 · 21 Jun 2006

Hi,
Last week I had some work done to my cistern, please see:-

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=54824&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

All seemed fine, then a day or two later, when we flushed the toilet as it finished filling it went 'Clonk', so I assumed there was air in the pipes, turned off the water, opened all tapes and turned water on agin, a few taps coughed and splutter and it seemed OK for another day or two, then same thing, so I thought, OK, I forgot to flush the toilet and open the mixer tap on shower, so went through same procedure, again cleared it for a day or two. I still have the same problem, when the cistern stops filling it goes clonk, I am fairly sure it is air in the system, how can I get around this?

By The way, I don't have a water tank-all on Mains pressure.

Thanks in Advance

Steve

Gasguru · 21 Jun 2006

Its looks as though the original valve was probably a diaphragm type ie it had a long float arm and a circular (or oval) float.

Due to fitting aggro (since many cisterns have non-standard valves) the plumber changed over to a Torbeck valve. This has an equilibreum type valve and it will shut the water off suddenly - often causing the pronounced clonk. The water inertia will move any pipework not sufficiently clipped.

Start by checking for loose pipework, insufficient clearance around pipework etc - it may be worth adding a shock arrestor (a small vessel containing presurised air) to absorb the energy.

Nige F · 21 Jun 2006

Gasguru said:
Due to fitting aggro (since many cisterns have non-standard valves) the plumber changed over to a Torbeck valve. This has an equilibreum type valve and it will shut the water off suddenly - often causing the pronounced clonk. The water inertia will move any pipework not sufficiently clipped.

Strange that the eqil. valve was originally designed to stop water hammer

.......That`s progress...Torbeck

. Gasguru is dead right.you may find a fluidmaster is slightly better if you can`t secure the pipes enough

Gasguru · 21 Jun 2006

I find fluidmaster even worse (and they are noisy on mains), American designed but made in Mexico - as bad as their flapper valves.

chrishutt · 21 Jun 2006

Did you fit the high pressure flow restrictor in the inlet of the Torbeck valve?

stevec59 · 21 Jun 2006

The plumber did swap over some bits-so I think Yes, he did say something about setting it for mains pressure.

What is strange is that it is OK for a day or two and then starts making the 'Thump \ Clonk' noise, that is what made me think there was probably still some air in there somewhere.

Steve

Gasguru · 21 Jun 2006

Have you checked for dead legs ie old bits of pipework not connected to any taps. Often these sections of pipework get left (bad practice) after conversion over to combi boilers - worth checking the roof.

ChrisR · 21 Jun 2006

They DO go Clonk! Have a look inside the cistern while it's filling. I bet you see the vertical part physically move sideways when it makes the noise. Some makes have a lateral adjustable screw, which controls it.

Gasguru · 21 Jun 2006

I think we need a dB reading on the clonk

JohnD · 22 Jun 2006

ChrisR said:
They DO go Clonk!

mine don't

ChrisR · 22 Jun 2006

Yours Wickes ones too?

JohnD · 22 Jun 2006

Nothing but the finest Torbecks.

stevec59 · 23 Jun 2006

Hi,
Had a look last night, it doesn't move and there is no adjustment to stabilize it, the old one did have but not this one , its very simular to:-

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=100996&ts=48949&id=19960

And that is a Torbeck, makes you wonder if it is a Torbeck but sold by Wickes as obviously they don't make there own.

I have a pipe that is just ended off-so I guess its a dead leg, so I might get the plummer around to sort that out-thing is I guess it means taking up Floor boards-Loads of Agro.

I am going to slightly close the isolation valve, this will reduce the flow and might stop it going 'Clonk', downside is that it will fill slower, but I don't like the 'Clonk', I can't help but think that it must be putting strain in the connections-Any Thoughts on this?

Thanks

Steve

stevec59 · 24 Jun 2006

OK. I reduced the water flow by adjusting the isolation valve and now there is no 'Clonk', thing is it now takes about 5 mins to fill up and that can be annoying, I think I will call the plumber and get him to have a look and listen, do you think a new valve of a different type (Maybe one with a Ball on it as I originally had) would be a good idea?

Thanks

Steve

stevec59 · 27 Jun 2006

Well the plumber came around last night, found it quite confusing, he said he thought it was due to water pressure, but why didn't it do it when he fitted it?Anyway, he had fitted a hight pressure restrictor in the pipe,changed that for a low pressure and all was OK (I think that is just because the cistern was emptied, that seems to clear the problem for about a day!!!), he then tried with no restritor, still no clonk, put low pressure one in and left it like that.He had a quick look at a pipe that I thought might be a dead leg, but wasn't suer, so think will probably do that this Friday, at least it will let me know what the pipe was, I am also getting him to put some pipes that are above the floorboards, below the floorboards, just so that they don't get damaged.

The clonk has started back this morning, so I suppose I won't really know a lot more before next weekend.

Steve

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Air in Water Pipes?

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