help with choosing new boiler

novicetodiy · 13 Aug 2006

Hi
Replacing old backboiler conventional system for combi for following reasons;
-High pressure cold and hot water supply to both bathroom and kitchen
-remove unsightly cylindar in bedroom, together with exposed piping running from lounge to loft
-free up space in loft
-hot water on demand, no waiting to heat up water if runs out.
-cheaper to install than convientional system

Problem is my parents have had bad experiences with combis, being landlords, they always seem to get tenants calling up saying no heating\hot water etc. Basically advised my strongly to avoid combi's like the plague! They put it down to constant turning on\off taps and too many moving\electronic parts that can wrong. They think coniventional systems will last years without servicing and with relativly no hassle.

However i would like to prove them wrong, cos i have spoken to a lot to people with combi's and installers who all seem to think combi systems have improved.

Now I have a 3 bed semi, 1 bathroom at the moment, and do not know which boiler to go for;

Either;

Worcester Bosch Greenstar 35CDI
-high heat output
-instant hot water
-high flow rate 14.3 l/min
-2 yr warranty
-Approx £1000 inc vat

Baxi Platinum Combi 28HE
-5 yr warranty
-high flow rate 13.5 l/min
-Stainless Steel Heat Exchanger
-Not sure on how instant this boiler can deliver hot water
-approx £900 inc

Valliant EcoTec plus combi 837
-high heat output
-high flow rate 14.8 l/min
-AquaComfort System - instant hotwater
-2 yr warranty
-approx £1000

Basically, I want a boiler they will NOT constantly break down after couple years of new, deliver pretty much instant hot water. Also gonna be a family home. Very interested in the BAXI 5 yr option, so BAXI is top of list at the mo. But Valliant & Bosch have instant hot water delivery. I soppose u can't have everything.

Please help, cos this decision is doing my head in!

bripl · 13 Aug 2006

you want reliabilty avoid a combi,you want something that will work for years without attention avoid a combi.just my personal opinion out of your selection worc or the vailiant would be the safer bets,have a look at viessman boilers vitodens 200 would be a good one,a bit dearer than the ones you mentioned but more reliable long term

chrishutt · 13 Aug 2006

novicetodiy said:
Basically, I want a boiler they will constantly break down after couple years

Then you should try Ideal boilers.

novicetodiy · 13 Aug 2006

Would everyone pretty much go with that?

you want reliabilty avoid a combi,you want something that will work for years without attention avoid a combi.just my personal opinion out of your selection worc or the vailiant would be the safer bets,have a look at viessman boilers vitodens 200 would be a good one,a bit dearer than the ones you mentioned but more reliable long term

So would you recommend a system boiler with unvented clyinder, so I can get high pressure hot and cold to all taps, plus free up loft of tanks?

micky p · 13 Aug 2006

what i installed in my dads house was a viessmann vitodens 300 system boiler along side a unvented hot water cylinder with emersion heaters as back up. Also we have it working of solar panels with is a differnt avenue but the way gas prices are going it has to be taken into consideration. viessmann are one of the best boilers on the market but not very well known in england. They are as big as(if not bigger) vaillant in germany. Viessmann are quite expensive tho. All boilers now you buy have most of the major componets a combi has in, just a combi has a diverter valve in that moves everytime you open a tap. regualar and system boilers all have fans , air pressure switches and circuit boards to go wrong in them and NTC temp sensors as well. The days of the old reliable conventional balanced flued

fitz1 · 13 Aug 2006

also glow worm 38 cxi. 15.5 ltr p/m. you get what you pay for. that includes materials AND labour.cheap jobs generally coincide with problems.

corgiman · 13 Aug 2006

wait for tony to say it dont matter what combi you have as long as its flushed correctly, and he would be right.

Years ago when I started, ahhh I remember it well, summers were always hot, it always snowed in winter and Disrali was in number ten, greta days

. I was always told the following

Combi boiler is like a civic, does the job nowt fancy
Thermal Store is like a mondeo, does the job better
Unvented Storage System is a Rolls Royce

I think that pretty much stands up as a similie of the above represent

But they would all be **** is you can tiddle faster than your mains water supply

Agile · 13 Aug 2006

"""Problem is my parents have had bad experiences with combis, being landlords, they always seem to get tenants calling up saying no heating\hot water etc. Basically advised my strongly to avoid combi's like the plague! They put it down to constant turning on\off taps and too many moving\electronic parts that can wrong. They think coniventional systems will last years without servicing and with relativly no hassle."""

I go to a lot of Asian landlord's property where the combi boilers have failed within a few weeks or months. This is nothing to do with the boiler itself failing but because the landlords just will not pay the proper price for the boiler to be installed and the system power flushed. They never get them serviced either !

Even the cheaper boilers will work perfectly well and reliably on a cleaned and treated system. These landlords never use an expensive boiler but if they did then then they would fail just like the cheaper ones.

Dirt from the radiators blocks the internal parts of the boiler and causes moving parts and the gland seals to wear out.

The extended guaranty boilers are just the same units with the cost of a service agreement added. That does not cover problems caused by poor installation.

Tony

corgiman · 13 Aug 2006

see told you he would

funny how some never ever ever acknowledge the previous posting even if its in accordance with their opinion.

might be nice and polite to do this ie "I agree with tony" or "chrishutt is on the right track I believe" as we may just offer a consenus view to the questioner

do you not think.

or our other peoples opinions in your (I mean this generally and AM not picking on one particular poster its just the above made me think of it) not worth bothering with even if they are your opinions also.

Gasguru · 13 Aug 2006

Most Band A combi's don't cost much more to manufacture than the non-condensing Band D boilers (probably less than £50.00).

However, the manufacturers have increased condensing boiler prices significantly, they then try to reassure the public by including 2,3 or 5 year warranties as part of the deal.

Don't be fooled. There is no real quality in any boiler these days. You are paying up front for all those future repairs covered by the warranty.

Also remember to qualify for the warranty the boiler must be serviced yearly as per the manual. This costs money in labour and service kits ie combuction cover gaskets etc (not cheap).

Check the small print - warranties often don't cover for installation faults and scale/sludge problems, many boiler components are very sensitive to these problems - especially diverter valves, heat exchangers.

For any hope of reliabilty go for a heat only boiler, if the pipes and radiators aren't to old convert over to a sealed system, change all the radiator valves - use Honeywell, Drayton, Danfoss Trvs and lockshields to BS2767 Pt10 (but not the O ring gland seals), Honeywell zone valves, Honeywell bypass, hardwired timeclock, room and cylinder stat, Duplex stainless steel unvented cylinder. Make sure the existing system is thoroughly cleaned out (power flushed) and dosed correctly with inhibitor.

Don't expect this lot to be cheap - a quality installation plays a major part in long term reliability.

corgiman · 13 Aug 2006

Guru is right most modern are let down by being overly complicated, there are mostly electronic rather than mechanical so that when the unreliablilty comes from, and they install PCB's that cost them about 3 bob and the rest of us 200 knicker

Gasguru · 13 Aug 2006

Additional cost of a Band A steamer:

Flue thermostat £1.00

Return thermistor £1.00

Condensate trap and fittings £5.00

Extra cost of modulating fan £10.00

Heat exchanger's are now stainless steel or aluminium, so any extra cost of fabrication is offset by the much higher cost of traditional copper heat exchangers. (Copper now $8000/ton)

Flue is cheaper since inner duct is now plastic

Considerable amounts of the boiler are now plastic rather than brass so large savings

Considerable use of O rings so much cheaper to assemble

Gas valve is simpler no modulating coil

Most boilers no longer fitted with an air pressure switch

The pre mix burner doesn't cost any more than a conventional burner.

And the cost of spares is now extortionate for some of the condensing boiler parts.

Manufactures are having a laugh - they can't loose. They've managed to convince the public, installers and merchants steamers are more expensive to make.

novicetodiy · 13 Aug 2006

Thanks everyone for their thoughts!

OK just had an installer come round to give price on system.

If thinks it best to go for the Rolls Royce of boiler systems: Heatrae Sadia Megaflo!
Reasons
-High Pressure,
-Flow rate, upto Up to 72 litres per minute depending on adequate supply conditions.
-Built in immersion heater, backup hot water if boiler goes down
-Gets rid of Header and expansion tank

He recommend the Valliant ecoTec plus system, not sure exact model.

My only concern is what kind of recovery rates are we looking at, if the clyinder runs out of hot water?

Is there any other thoughts on unvented solution?

Also I have old lead mains coming into the house, but 3 bar pressure from kitchen. Might need to upgrade mains coming to 30mm plastic.

micky p · 13 Aug 2006

novicetodiy said:
Thanks everyone for their thoughts!

OK just had an installer come round to give price on system.

If thinks it best to go for the Rolls Royce of boiler systems: Heatrae Sadia Megaflo!
Reasons
-High Pressure,
-Flow rate, upto Up to 72 litres per minute depending on adequate supply conditions.
-Built in immersion heater, backup hot water if boiler goes down
-Gets rid of Header and expansion tank

He recommend the Valliant ecoTec plus system, not sure exact model.

My only concern is what kind of recovery rates are we looking at, if the clyinder runs out of hot water?

Is there any other thoughts on unvented solution?

Also I have old lead mains coming into the house, but 3 bar pressure from kitchen. Might need to upgrade mains coming to 30mm plastic.

i have an oso unveted cylinder in which is garenteed upto 25 years against corrosion like a few others.Most unveted cylinders do the same job but make sure you get a stainless steel one as there are some steel glass lined ones on the market and id stay away from them if i was you.

Water Systems · 13 Aug 2006

novicetodiy said:
Hi
Replacing old backboiler conventional system for combi for following reasons;
-High pressure cold and hot water supply to both bathroom and kitchen
-remove unsightly cylindar in bedroom, together with exposed piping running from lounge to loft
-free up space in loft
-hot water on demand, no waiting to heat up water if runs out.
-cheaper to install than convientional system

Problem is my parents have had bad experiences with combis, being landlords, they always seem to get tenants calling up saying no heating\hot water etc. Basically advised my strongly to avoid combi's like the plague! They put it down to constant turning on\off taps and too many moving\electronic parts that can wrong. They think coniventional systems will last years without servicing and with relativly no hassle.

However i would like to prove them wrong, cos i have spoken to a lot to people with combi's and installers who all seem to think combi systems have improved.

Now I have a 3 bed semi, 1 bathroom at the moment, and do not know which boiler to go for;

Either;

Worcester Bosch Greenstar 35CDI
-high heat output
-instant hot water
-high flow rate 14.3 l/min
-2 yr warranty
-Approx £1000 inc vat

Baxi Platinum Combi 28HE
-5 yr warranty
-high flow rate 13.5 l/min
-Stainless Steel Heat Exchanger
-Not sure on how instant this boiler can deliver hot water
-approx £900 inc

Valliant EcoTec plus combi 837
-high heat output
-high flow rate 14.8 l/min
-AquaComfort System - instant hotwater
-2 yr warranty
-approx £1000

Basically, I want a boiler they will NOT constantly break down after couple years of new, deliver pretty much instant hot water. Also gonna be a family home. Very interested in the BAXI 5 yr option, so BAXI is top of list at the mo. But Valliant & Bosch have instant hot water delivery. I soppose u can't have everything.

Please help, cos this decision is doing my head in!

Go for combi's:

1. Viessmann
2. Eco-Hometec
3. Atmos
4. Etag

You will not regrett it.

diynot

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help with choosing new boiler

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