Hard Water Descalers - Electric / Electronic

The magnetic devices DO work.

But they do not remove scale and so do not soften water.

They should be called water conditioners.

They only work to some extent and exactly to what extent depends on the application and exactly how they are fitted.

The electronic ones should also work but the magnetic field they produce is so weak compared with the permanent magnet ones that I dont see how they can have any significant effect.

The electrolytic ones also work to some extent but are rarely seen.

Tony
 
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Agile

It's an interesting and much discussed topic, but there has never been one single independant study produced that says they work.

I looked up on Wiki and amongst other things it said that Lawrence Livermore Labs ( nuclear bomb factory ) in the US tested them and found no difference on all sorts of criteria.

Your comment about magnet strength cannot be right because until recently these devices would have used ferrite magnets which have really feeble field-strength. Only over the last few years have cheap neodymium magnets been available from China and these are far more powerful.

By the way, an electro-magnet ( your ref "electronic" ) can produce much more magnetic force that a permanent magnet in the size were are talking about..
 
The electronic ones typically produce a very weak field at about 150 kHz but the power involved is about 20 mW and I dont see how these can have any significant effect at all. Nor have I encountered anyone who find tem to do anything useful.

By contrast the permanent magnet ones are considered by most users to have some effect. I am very happy with the one I use but then its placed where its likely to be most effective.

As far as I am aware all the magnetic ones sold use ferrite magnets as they are far cheaper. They create a relatively powerful field.

Tony
 
kHz has nothing to do with field-strength which is measured in gauss.

Ferrite magnets are not , as you say "relatively powerful " they are very weak and are generally only used in industry for giving a signal e'g. the speed-controller on your washing machine has a sensor that counts how often it "sees" a magnetic signal as the drun spins. Their only advantages are cheapness and easy magnetisation due to their low coercivity .

Bought in quantities of low 000's ferrites will not cost more than 10 p and neo's 20 - 30 p even allowing for recent rises in costs of rare-earth metals,

All irrelevant though because its not the magnetics properties that are selling these products, but marketing and peoples desire to believe.
 
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The electronic water conditioners produce a weak ac signal at a FREQUENCY of about 150 kHz which is applied to a small coil wound around the pipe.

Ferrite permanent magnets have come a long way since your time and are now used in DC motors, loudspeakers etc.

Tony
 
Oh of course no advertising. Anyway a friend of mine up the road has a Little Plumber. She is fastidious with 2 bathrooms and gold everywhere and she love it. Wouldn't have an old salty to save her life!!
 
The Little Plumber website contains these words:-

Little Plumber 1 (LP1) Electronic Water Descaler Information
The LP1 is an Electronic Water Descaler that softens hard water, removes limescale and prevents limescale from forming, is easy to install and requires no maintenance.

As far as I am aware ALL the other firms trying to sell magnetic or electronic devices only call them "conditioners".

Its only this firm thats says they are softeners and remove lime scale! My question would be where does the removed lime scale go to?

I am totally happy that permanent magnet conditioners do work to an extent. However the power input is so low to the electronic ones that the magnetic field will be so weak that I cannot see how they can have much effect at all.

A few years ago I went to an CIPHE seminar on Water Treatment which I expected to be interesting. Unfortunately it was a succession of different manufacturers whose aim was to tell everyone that their own products were the only one that worked well.

Tony
 
Hi
Yes they are not really water softeners but after 10 years and having sold thousands with none coming back they do pretty much take the place of an ion exchange softener. They are certainly a hell of a lot cheaper to run say £2.00 a year and require no plumbing. We call them softeners because after the Ca++ Calcium and HCO3 Carbonate ions crystallise out in the water the pH drops and the water left is soft. So soft in fact that it dissoloves away existing limescale. The Calcium and Carbonate ions which are in solution crystallise out as sub-microscopic crystals and are simply flushed away.

You don't actually need much energy to achieve this and LP make a SOLO or battery operated unit which works very well and consumes very little energy.

Most of the answers are on the site but as I have been at this for over 12 years now I can tell you that the main plus about these products is the enormous amount of energy saved by removing the limescale from heat exchangers and making them more efficient.
 
@ Agile

Your reply shows that you know nothing about magnetism , just bluff and hot air !

In my opinion( I await your reply ) ferrite magnets have not progressed at all in the last twenty years ( in the same way that the heat-carrying properties of water have not changed ) although there have been incremental ( =small) changes in powder production, sintering technique and heat treatment. These changes are what you might expect in a mature and well-understood manufacturing process and therefore apply to the other types of sintered magnets such as AlNiCo and Neo .

Can you please confirm how you feel ferrite magnets have improved ?

Ferrite permanent magnets have come a long way since your time and are now used in DC motors, loudspeakers etc.
Click to expand...
[/
P.S. This type of usages you speak DC motors, loudspeakers etc. of are 90's technology. Look now and all this stuff is neo. The Toyota Prius uses 15 kG of neo magnets, which I guess would have needed between 1,500kg and 2,000 kg Fe, ergo impossible.

Would you please like to say how ferrite magnets have significantly advanced in the last twenty/thirty years as you have confidently said they have ?

P.P.S My apologies to those readers ho feel we have wandered from theoriginal topic.
Click to expand...
 
Although magnetic water treatment (MWT) products have been promoted since the 1930's, they have not received very wide acceptance within the engineering community, and the question of whether or not they are effective is still very much open. No scientific explanation seems to be verifiable and is considered quackery by real scientists, mainly because they can't say how it works

My year gone evidence says that electronic descalers do work. The one I use pulses at 38kHz with 20 turns wrapped round the rising main. It has been running for one year and shows a distinct reduction in Calcium Carbonate in the kettle and the thermostatic mixer to the shower.
 
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