leaking between P-bend and waste pipe.

Softus · 13 Sep 2006

stokey said:
I think I understand your recommending the particular manufacturer (Multikwik). I got a 'longer version' from 'Plumb Centre' and to be qute honest it looks to be rather flimsy. I took the other one back to Wickes, and in fact they had a compatible fitting which looked infinitely more substantial.(and no more expensive incidentally.)

I'm surprised to hear that the Wickes item is better quality than the one from Plumb Centre - it's commonly the other way around.

Multikwik is a technical preference of mine, also something of a personal preference I suppose, because they are slightly more pliable and, IMHO, less prone to leaking. Not that you'll get a leak if you keep everything lined up.

So I am ready to hit the problem now and will probably have a go tomorrow. These things have to be planned carefully as my wife is severely disabled and needs that particular loo as she is confined downstairs.

I understand that, and you have my full sympathy. So much so that if you were minded to then I could give you my mobile number to call in case you need a voice of reassurance durng the job.

One final question if I may, the soil end of the connector where there are plastic/rubber 'rings' (finials???)....presumably I take those off to cut the pipe to size? Or could the whole device be pushed into the soil pipe?..it would probably go in by about 100mm...

There's no particular need to cut the connector down, unless it would otherwise poke into the soil stack. As you say, if you did then you'd need to remove the rubber sealing rings first.

There will be a small gap between the outer rim of the connector and the interior rim of the soil pipe...presumably one fills that in with filler of some sort.

Yup - I know what you mean. In the interests of a tidy job, and to stop the collection of unwelcome detritus (!) in the gap, I would use white silicone sealant. Use only sanitary grade mildew resistent silicone, such as Dow Corning 785; if the gap is deep then squeeze in a foundation, leave it to cure, then 24 hours later go over it again to get a reasonably level surface.

stokey · 13 Sep 2006

I think I am now up to CGLI standard in the theory aspect!! I will try it all tomorrow. Thanks for the offer of the help via mobile, but I really feel that will be pushing your goodwill and kindness a bit too far. If I get any sticky points during the process, I will message 'Houston, we have a problem!!!'
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stokey · 14 Sep 2006

Hi again,
Before starting the job I have checked the measurements of the connector I have from Plumb Center and find that the the length of the smaller arm of the device is about 9cms from the midpoint of the soil pipeto the end. On the existing one, this distance is about 15 cms which gives a good overlap onto the spigot.
If with this one I have bought I push the spigot connector fully on to the spigot itself, then I feel the connection to the soil will not be aligned properly.
Maybe I ought to go back to Wickes to check out the measurments of the one I saw there. Or better still try to get a Multikwik from somewhere local if that is possible.
Thanks again for any help you offer.

Softus · 14 Sep 2006

stokey said:
If with this one I have bought I push the spigot connector fully on to the spigot itself, then I feel the connection to the soil will not be aligned properly.

Ah yes! Which is why I mentioned that you might need to move the pan back and adjust (i.e. cut) the flush pipe to suit.

Maybe I ought to go back to Wickes to check out the measurments of the one I saw there. Or better still try to get a Multikwik from somewhere local if that is possible.

Or you can do that instead!

BTW, the document on the Multikwik web site indicates that the insertion depth for the 2190 (short) connector and 3190 straight (long) connector is 100mm, and the 3190 in my hand confirms this, so you'll be only slightly better off with a Multikwik.

BTW again, the Multikwik pan installation instruction are available if you click here.

ChrisR · 14 Sep 2006

That's why I have two dustbinliners full of the damn things! All the different makes are slightly different shapes and sizes. The long male end (in the soil pipe) can be at a slight angle, that's not the end that tends to leak.

Multiqwik are not my faves because I've had a bit of trouble with leaks at the female end. But other makes have "loose" ribs at the male end which can be a proper pain to get into the soil pipe without coming up the plastic pipe as you push it in. Not sure about Wickes' ones. A short piece of 4" round gutter is wonderful for pushing the rubber ribbed collar into the joint - though your access isn't great.

I assume you're NOT taking the pan out. It looks like it will be difficult without, but worth a try.

Softus · 14 Sep 2006

ChrisR said:
Multiqwik are not my faves because I've had a bit of trouble with leaks at the female end.

No insult intended, but did you know that there are two sizes of female end on a Multikwik?

stokey · 14 Sep 2006

I assume you're NOT taking the pan out. It looks like it will be difficult without, but worth a try.

No, I am in fact taking the pan out, but do not wish to move it back towards the wall to get the female joint well onto the spigot as the pan sits on a precise concrete plinthimg][/img].
I think I have a successful small pic to show this.
All this help is greatly appreciated and I hoped to make a start today. However, given my limited abilities it seems I need to get a connector which is going to work almost as a direct swop for the existing one. Softus tells me that the insertion distance is only about 100mm on the Multiklik so that may not give us enough insertion for a solid connection. Maybe the old connector is no longer produced. I will check the Wickes one. Maybe I might be lucky, but I think I am going to need about 15 cms to get it onto the spigot.
I think I have picked all your brains and am so grateful. But any further information will be thankfully received.

Softus · 14 Sep 2006

stokey said:
I am in fact taking the pan out, but do not wish to move it back towards the wall to get the female joint well onto the spigot as the pan sits on a precise concrete plinth

Picture is fine, and I've been in this situation. I know you don't want to grow the job (who does), but unless you happen across a like-for-like replacement connector then I think you'll need to move the pan.

In fact, what I usually find with concrete plinths is that someone has squished it up into the pan base, so neat removal of the pan is actually impossible without breaking it. Sorry to throw a downer you so late in the planning stage, but I didn't know that there was a plinth until now.

If the pan does come off cleanly, with a flat bottom, then retaining the concrete is going difficult, because of securing the pan back down again.

Do you have a jigsaw? If so, then place the pan on some timber of the same thickness as the plinth, mark around it, and cut the shape out. If necessary use two layers (of plywood, say), to build it up. This isn't as hard as it sounds.

Or, at this juncture, perhaps it's time to consider the bodge-it-and-run approach...

If you can remove the old connector with the pan in place, then do so, then clean the female end (not a nice job I'm afraid), and also the pan spigot.

Then, coat the female end of the old connector with top grade silicone sealant (e.g. Dow Corning 785), but only at the end closest to the open end. Then install the connector. Put a bead of sealant around the connector rim, and wipe around with a finger to make a seal with no gaps. Lubricate finger with washing up liquid first.

Now wash your hands!

As a postscript, just in case you're still on track...

Softus tells me that the insertion distance is only about 100mm on the Multikwik so that may not give us enough insertion for a solid connection.

No - no no no no no. I don't think I said "insertion depth", but if I did then I was wrong. The depth from end of connector (female end) to centre of the male end is 100mm, not the insertion depth, which is even less than 100mm.

stokey · 14 Sep 2006

I know you don't want to grow the job (who does), but unless you happen across a like-for-like replacement connector then I think you'll need to move the pan.

Not very good at selecting the quote and getting the poster's name. The moderator's tips in the FAQ section for 'Quotes' is not very clear..or maybe it is me!!

Anyway, too damned true that amateurs like me don't want to grow the job!!!
I am fairly certain that the 4 screws holding down the pan come out quite easily and the pan can be slid off the plinth. I am fairly certain of this as years ago the pan did wobble a bit and I found the installer (whose name was John Wayne or Roy Rogers) had used 1.5inch long screws to hold the pan down. I did replace them with much longer screws and plugs.
So I think I will go out tomorrow and measure the one in Wickes to see if it is of suitable dimensions. If not, then maybe the bodge and run may be a possibility..(but not really may favoured strategy as I have spent a lot of time in planning and had a lot of help).
Failing that, I shall sit and look at it all like the famous Rodin statue called 'the Thinker' until I get a solution which is within my capabilities.
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ChrisR · 14 Sep 2006

I remember there are different sizes now you remind me! I think I've only ever used dthe smaller (100mm) ones.
Been off bogs for a while. Any idea why siphonic pan connectors should be different?
http://www.multikwik.com/files/New DL Plumbers guide WEB.pdf

bab · 14 Sep 2006

Not wanting to complicate matter but that old type pan connector is a glued socket on to the soil pipe & it is also a slower radius than a new pan conector. I u cut off all the bend then a new bent connector will not reach the spiggot on the pan. 2 options. cut off the bend leaving the old socket on the pipe , fit the new bent panconnector but fit a straight panconnector into it to extend it onto the spigot . this maybe done with pan still in. or remove pan cut only the first socket off with the old rubber in & fit a cut down panconnector extension & a straight pan connector.OOPs didnt read page 2. What about cutting old soilpipe flush with wall & fitting a bent flexi McAlpine panconnecter.

Softus · 15 Sep 2006

ChrisR said:
I remember there are different sizes now you remind me! I think I've only ever used dthe smaller (100mm) ones.

Me too, and with a spigot of 108mm it hardly matters which you use, 'cos the two ranges overlap, but I was reminded of the difference recently when a back-to-wall pan had a spigot of about 98mm, and I'd picked up the larger size out of the box - had a bit of a surprise when it just fell on to the spigot (and fell off again).

Been off bogs for a while.

Does that mean that you're full of sh*t?

Any idea why siphonic pan connectors should be different?

None. Not one. Zip. Zilch. Rien. I am devoid of all ideas in this respect. On paper the spec looks exactly the same, so it must be a pretty subtle difference...

ChrisR · 15 Sep 2006

Only just noticed the soil pipe length

- yes it would all be easier if you cut it back.
Do look at other makes. Some have a much longer socket end - this one's Polypipe Kwikfit:

stokey · 15 Sep 2006

ChrisR said:
Only just noticed the soil pipe length - yes it would all be easier if you cut it back.
Do look at other makes. Some have a much longer socket end - this one's Polypipe Kwikfit:

I am now a bit confused over the socket end; is that the spigot end of the connector? And I am also wondering about the old fitting being a 'glued socket'. How do I deal with a glued socket? presumably it cannot be slid of as with a normal push-fit connector.

I shall not work on it today; maybe 'avoidance behaviour' is setting in. I would prefer to do this job myself rather than get a plumber in; it would be a great boost to my confidence and give me immense pride.

stokey · 15 Sep 2006

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So this gives the whole view of the pipework from the back of the pan into the connector.Then it goes onto the soil feed and into the soil stack...(or so I believe).

Maybe the solution lies with the idea of finding a flexible connector and getting it to the soil pipe as recently suggested...or maybe the clean and reseal with the Dow Corning 785....or maybe find a connector of suitable dimensions (but there is still the problem of the 'glued socket'. So there are loads of strategies and much help for which I am most grateful.
So, any final views on this mega problem of mine???

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leaking between P-bend and waste pipe.

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