boiler pcb's ref. recon

We use an outfit in Watford (CET) for reconditioned PCBs and have never had a problem or a warranty issue. Each unit is tested individually by skilled technicians before it leaves.

There are instances where we will use new OE boards and these are where the board has been changed for an updated unit because of problems in the field; Potterton Suprima, for example, which is now using a Siemens card.

We hold recon boards on the shelf for most Baxi Pot products, those in the trade will understand why we have singled out this manufacturer. I cannot see any way a recon BaxiPot board could be any less reliable than a new one; surely that is impossible?

Our profit margin is less on recon boards so they are not offered as way of increasing our profits, they are a cost effective and environmentally responsible solution.

Personally I think that manufacturers producing dodgy electronics in their boilers should waive some of their margin on boards to help their customers. After all, there are boilers out there where changing a PCB is almost unheard of, there are others which eat a PCB every 4-5 yrs.

I cannot see any way a recon BaxiPot board could be any less reliable than a new one;

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Would you prefer to use a repaired old unreliable car than a new one?

While using a recon board for an old boiler can make economic sense, there are issues.

1) no refurbisher understands the circuit design of all the boards he works on. Even relatively simple/old technology ones, like Puma boards. I can quote if required..

2) no refurbisher knows the testing procedures which would be applied by a manufacturer. These include not just the correct functions, but also the behaviour if there's a failure, and also the environmental operating range of the boards
As far as I am aware, the best you can hope for is that a refurbisher will change parts likely to give a problem, connect to a mock-up of a boiler and check that, as far as he is aware, a boiler will work, if everything off the board behaves as it should.

3) In some cases all you get is a board where apparently-failed components are replaced. The rest are left, so many components are a long way through their lifespan.

4) In some cases a board will be altered to make it "more reliable", which means disabling or compromising the safety circuits on it. I have a couple of examples, where I have worked out how the circuit is supposed to work.

Having said that, some, particularly older design boards, are quite simple, and so are the faults they get. In those cases, in my opinion, there's very little risk of getting "caught" in any way.

The economic arguments, except for ancient boilers, don't look good for using recon boards, as far as I'm concerned.
I wouldn't provide a £50 recon and sell it for the rrp of a new one, but I know plenty who do - the economic argment there is stronger!
I suppose there might be cases where someone won't/can't pay for a repair using a new board but would/can for a recon one, but it hasn't happened to me yet.

The other potential problems raised by others above are valid. I rather imagine an insurance company would not endorse fitting components against the advice of the manufacturer. If someone died they would claim ignorance and push the responsibility onto the installer or supplier of the board.

"Getting Away" with doing something for however long, doesn't make it completely OK.

simond said:

We use an outfit in Watford (CET) for reconditioned PCBs and have never had a problem or a warranty issue. Each unit is tested individually by skilled technicians before it leaves.

.

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Well, thank you for that glowing report

"""Each unit is tested individually by skilled technicians before it leaves."""

I am sure that the places in Park Royal and Sutton Coldfield would both say that too.

If I had to make a choice then I would probably go the extra mile to Watford.

Tony

""I cannot see any way a recon BaxiPot board could be any less reliable than a new one; "
Would you prefer to use a repaired old unreliable car than a new one? "

Well, and of course,I'm biased, EVERY recon pcb from us is individually tested, connector joints are reworked and unlikely to present a problem in the future etc


1) no refurbisher understands the circuit design of all the boards he works on. Even relatively simple/old technology ones, like Puma boards. I can quote if required..

While this is true in the case of processor based boards, in the case of e.g. a Solo2 or a profile, I have made circuit diagrams for the various issues of the pcbs and would caim to understand them

In the case of processor based boards, the manufacturersonly batch test the pcbs, so a defective board is as likely to get through their QA as through our tests


2) no refurbisher knows the testing procedures which would be applied by a manufacturer. These include not just the correct functions, but also the behaviour if there's a failure, and also the environmental operating range of the boards

See above

As far as I am aware, the best you can hope for is that a refurbisher will change parts likely to give a problem, connect to a mock-up of a boiler and check that, as far as he is aware, a boiler will work, if everything off the board behaves as it should.

but at least we test every board. I have to concede the fact that we can't know every software feature, bu tyou have to realise that after 14 years in the business, we have a decent clue. If we didn't, we wouldn't still be here, would we ?

3) In some cases all you get is a board where apparently-failed components are replaced. The rest are left, so many components are a long way through their lifespan.

Sorry, but we're a bit more savvy than you infer there

4) In some cases a board will be altered to make it "more reliable", which means disabling or compromising the safety circuits on it.

not from us, it doesn't

A bit too much sphincter talk there chris

MOD 2

next sales pitch gets locked

A bit too much sphincter talk there chris

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What is that remark supposed to mean? Tell me where I'm wrong. Or was it meant as a generally offensive meaningless jibe?

You make claims of your knowledge of all manufacturers testing methods. They don't entirely tie up with my experiences of pcb manufacturing methods. I'm surprised all the manufacturers have been so open as to tell you what each of theirs are.

I have made circuit diagrams for the various issues of the pcbs and would caim to understand them

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You mean you've worked out the parts you think you need to know about. As I said, you don't claim to know what all the functions are of even a non processor-based board. Like a Puma E.

To "many components are a long way through their lifespan. "
You answered

Sorry, but we're a bit more savvy than you infer there

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There is no need to apologise I wasn't aiming any comments at you specifically. You obviously change ALL the components on the board, then.

after 14 years in the business, . . .. ., we wouldn't still be here, would we ?

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Means little Geoff. Potterton have been producing rubbish PCB's for longer than that and they're still going strong. Yours could be worse - they're less well known, there's no audit trail, and they're cheaper so you could get away with a lot.

The questioner asked about recon boards, not your boards. As it's an unregulated, frowned-upon activity not approved by anybody, we can't justify any good comment about ALL recon boards.

Raden certainly missed his calling, should have been a diplomat

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Quote:
A bit too much sphincter talk there chris

What is that remark supposed to mean?
Tell me where I'm wrong.

It means that you are presenting non-existent problems

They just don't exist in statistically relevant numbers

You make claims of your knowledge of all manufacturers testing methods.
They don't entirely tie up with my experiences of pcb manufacturing methods. I'm surprised all the manufacturers have been so open as to tell you what each of theirs are.

Where ?

I can prove that they don't test every pcb - look in the archive for example - a photo of a Puma FSC wth it's tested lavel which couldn't possibly have worked for example


Quote:
I have made circuit diagrams for the various issues of the pcbs and would caim to understand them
You mean you've worked out the parts you think you need to know about. As I said, you don't claim to know what all the functions are of even a non processor-based board. Like a Puma E.

Yes

To "many components are a long way through their lifespan. "
You answered Quote:
Sorry, but we're a bit more savvy than you infer there

Yes

There is no need to apologise I wasn't aiming any comments at you specifically. You obviously change ALL the components on the board, then.

YOur academic knowledge is way off our practical experience


Quote:
after 14 years in the business, . . .. ., we wouldn't still be here, would we ?

Means little Geoff. Potterton have been producing rubbish PCB's for longer than that and they're still going strong. Yours could be worse - they're less well known, there's no audit trail, and they're cheaper so you could get away with a lot.

Service companies would not continue to use us if they had to go back to a job a second time on a r3egular basis, the saving on a pcb would be outweighed by the cost of a second visit

... but they do

The questioner asked about recon boards, not your boards. As it's an unregulated, frowned-upon activity not approved by anybody, we can't justify any good comment about ALL recon boards.

Geoff I have no axe to grind here. I'm trying to be as objective as possible. As I said, there are situations where I would use a mended board.

You're making wild generalisations about what manufacturers do, by implication ALL manufacturers, in what you admit is a biased attack. All you cite as proof of inadequacy is one example.
Your answers to my pointing out some of those claims, don't make sense at all, but I'm not going to go through it line by line.

My knowledge isn't just academic. I don't claim to know about boiler manufacturer's specs on manufacturing and testing requirements for their boards, but I have seen a lot of boards made, in several factories.
I've long since lost count of how many failed boards I've worked on (not boiler boards, but the principles are the same.) Of course I've also seen quite a few failed boards in boilers, including mended ones.

Service companies would not continue to use us if they had to go back to a job a second time on a r3egular basis, the saving on a pcb would be outweighed by the cost of a second visit

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Only SOME service companies do. Most don't, and they have their reasons. Of those who do, mended boards obviously suit their purposes, probably just because they're cheaper. That's the end of the market they're in. They could be a lot less good than maufacturers' boards and still be economically worth fitting. Whether a failure is what you refer to as "statistically relevant" is a matter of opinion.

The boiler manufacturers could refurb boards, properly, but they don't; BG (afaik) don't refurbish or use mended boards. Ask yourself why.

If you didn't make overstated claims, I wouldn't object, but my knowledge and experience tells me that the picture being portrayed is surprisingly misleading.

If people want to use mended boards, OK, as long as they, and their customers, know what they're getting, and take responsibility if the worst happens. In most cases, nobody has a clue what they're getting.

Apart from the performance issues, IF there were a death or explosion and the cause was traced to a mistake in mending a board, someone could quite likely go to prison - however long they'd been getting away with doing it.

I personally still would never ever ever use recon pcb's

sorry raden your slick sales pitch didnt work on me

am I worried ?

raden said:

am I worried ?

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i should hope not

there you are then

there are enough sensible people about

I did a LSC for a client with a Puma yesterday.

We had previously repaired the DHW flow switch after another company had charged £244 to replace the PCB but they gave up when that did not fix it.

I had pointed out to the Client that the PCB they had supplied was NOT a new one, even at that price, and was just a repaired one resplendent with the repairer's label.

He complained by letter to the firm who, without any argument, returned the £244 without question.

Well done!

Tony Glazier

There you go then. Point proven. Mended boards are for rogue plumbers to rip off customers