Trying to fault find Honeywell Y-Plan system
- Thread starter The Jeep
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Just about to go back to my client, but had a quick look at a photo I took of the room stat connections last week (should've checked this out earlier, I guess).
Live on 1 (OK), switched live on 3 (OK), but neutral on 4 rather than 2 (?). I'll try swapping it around, but any thoughts?
Live on 1 (OK), switched live on 3 (OK), but neutral on 4 rather than 2 (?). I'll try swapping it around, but any thoughts?
Phew, busy day....I have the entire sequence (drawings plus text in order) created in a Word document. Not sure how to get it into the forum: I will contact admin unless someone knows.
Back to el problemo...no, the room stat was wired fine (I checked manufacturers drawing and terminal 4 is indeed for the neutral).
However...the motorized valve, which I suspected of being stuck, was indeed stuck. The spring was not able to return the lever to its rest position and when pushed (when CH off), moved freely for about half its travel before encountering resistance.
I then removed the power head from the valve shaft and discovered that they were, seemingly, out of alignment. With the head off, the spring returned the push lever OK, and the shaft of the valve itself seemed to turn OK, albeit through only a few degrees (I figured this was 'normal' as I could feel it seat in both directions.
However, when I tried to put the head back on, it would only go on with the shaft turned anti-clockwise slightly, moving the ball towards its mid-position and the spring, again, would not be fully returned (tricky to explain, but I hope you get my drift!).
But perhaps more revealing than this was that I noticed that one of the microswitches was totally missing! (the one nearest the motor, which I believe is the first one to contact). Hmmm...did some cowboy fit this dodgey actuator head at some point in place of a fully working one? Perhaps it was a mistake.
Anyhoo, with the dodgey shaft alignment and the missing switch, I think it's time to get back to some real plumbing and replace the complete valve with a new one. I've suggested that my client invest in a 'momo' type which I hear are more reliable, and cheaper. Any last thoughts, gentlemen?
Back to el problemo...no, the room stat was wired fine (I checked manufacturers drawing and terminal 4 is indeed for the neutral).
However...the motorized valve, which I suspected of being stuck, was indeed stuck. The spring was not able to return the lever to its rest position and when pushed (when CH off), moved freely for about half its travel before encountering resistance.
I then removed the power head from the valve shaft and discovered that they were, seemingly, out of alignment. With the head off, the spring returned the push lever OK, and the shaft of the valve itself seemed to turn OK, albeit through only a few degrees (I figured this was 'normal' as I could feel it seat in both directions.
However, when I tried to put the head back on, it would only go on with the shaft turned anti-clockwise slightly, moving the ball towards its mid-position and the spring, again, would not be fully returned (tricky to explain, but I hope you get my drift!).
But perhaps more revealing than this was that I noticed that one of the microswitches was totally missing! (the one nearest the motor, which I believe is the first one to contact). Hmmm...did some cowboy fit this dodgey actuator head at some point in place of a fully working one? Perhaps it was a mistake.
Anyhoo, with the dodgey shaft alignment and the missing switch, I think it's time to get back to some real plumbing and replace the complete valve with a new one. I've suggested that my client invest in a 'momo' type which I hear are more reliable, and cheaper. Any last thoughts, gentlemen?
Firstly, and this is really important, it's el problema, not el problemo.
It could be that the original valve was a diverter valve (Honeywell W Plan?) rather than a mid-position one, and that someone subsequently tried to fit a mid-position head.
I wouldn't worry about fitting a new mid-position valve of the same type - many will have compatible threads so you don't even need to change the nuts and olives, and they are readily available and can be quite cheap.
It could be that the original valve was a diverter valve (Honeywell W Plan?) rather than a mid-position one, and that someone subsequently tried to fit a mid-position head.
I wouldn't worry about fitting a new mid-position valve of the same type - many will have compatible threads so you don't even need to change the nuts and olives, and they are readily available and can be quite cheap.
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Ah, so problems are female in Italian! Well, in a crude way, that sort of makes sense as I just split up with my Italian girlfriend recently...
Yes, my feeling is that the valve and head are not a perfect match. I must admit to being a tad disappointed with the rather 'rickety' mechanics of the Honeys, and the fact that the motor has power to it so much of the time 'unnecessarily'. The Sunvic motor-on-motor-off sounds like an overall improvement in design, and cheaper, too. And they say it has the same wiring, same connections to the pipework. No contesto...
Still interested in that cut & paste item? Any suggestions as to how to post it?
Yes, my feeling is that the valve and head are not a perfect match. I must admit to being a tad disappointed with the rather 'rickety' mechanics of the Honeys, and the fact that the motor has power to it so much of the time 'unnecessarily'. The Sunvic motor-on-motor-off sounds like an overall improvement in design, and cheaper, too. And they say it has the same wiring, same connections to the pipework. No contesto...
Still interested in that cut & paste item? Any suggestions as to how to post it?
No wonder it didn't work out with your Italian girlfriend - el problema is Spanish. It's a male word (hence el) but exceptionally with an a ending. Probably the same in Italian, but then it would be il problema.The Jeep said:
With regard to the cut and paste, can you email it to me and I'll sort it out? My email is in my profile.
ollski said:
I have just told my client to go out and get one and I'll fit it Tuesday. You're clearly a man of experience, so please elaborate!! Thanks.
(just cancelled his action so awaiting feedback from yourself and anyone else in the know...)
Chrishutt - ta, will email file to you this morning
Just to make you chuckle a bit more about Honeywell's 'rickety' mechanics:
I came across the following on a Honeywell 4043 2-port valve datasheet the other day. Quote: 'Continuous operation of the valve motor at the fully open position is not recommended'.
see http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/Catalogue/Heating Controls/2.19 V4043.pdf
Appears that Honeywell now advocates the Power of Prayer to keep the valve open against the spring!
I came across the following on a Honeywell 4043 2-port valve datasheet the other day. Quote: 'Continuous operation of the valve motor at the fully open position is not recommended'.
see http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/Catalogue/Heating Controls/2.19 V4043.pdf
Appears that Honeywell now advocates the Power of Prayer to keep the valve open against the spring!
This is the new version of the original CH4 post, with some amendments. Please draw attention to any errors. (Note to Jeep - Room stat opening is same as programmer CH switch opening, so no need to duplicate diagrams.)
A brief description of the operation of Y-Plan CH system, with diagrams:
If the programmer's power supply was interrupted, the initial state of your system will be like this:
The motorised valve's return spring will have moved the valve to its resting position (DHW only).
If the programmer first calls for DHW the pump/boiler will be energised via the cylinder stat (the path of the electric current is indicated in Red):
The motorised valve will remain in its resting position because no power has been supplied to its motor. In this position the valve only supplies hot water to the cylinder.
If the programmer and room stat now call for CH, as well as DHW, 240 volts is applied to the valve's motor via the room thermostat:
The motor advances the valve towards its mid position.
When the valve reaches mid position, its first micro-switch (the upper switch in the diagram) toggles over:
Now the valve's motor is no longer powered directly from a 240 volt supply. Instead, it receives its power via the diode so that it is fed with DC current. When DC is applied in this way, a ‘sychron’ motor, as fitted to these valves, acts like a brake and holds the valve in this set (mid) position, supplying hot water to both the cylinder and radiators.
When the cylinder stat is satisfied, it toggles over:
Besides applying 240 volts directly to the valves motor, enabling it to advance the valve beyond the mid position, this switching action also removes the power supply to the pump/boiler. This is the reason why one would notice the pump go off momentarily.
As the valve moves further across, it toggles the second micro-switch. Thereby, restoring power to the pump/boiler:
The valve continues to move across until it hits the end stop - stalling the motor. In this position the valve only supplies hot water to the radiators.
When the programmer stops calling for CH and DHW, the valve remains in the fully across position because its motor is still directly powered - this time from the programmer's DHW Off terminal:
If the supply is not interrupted then, when the programmer next calls for CH and DHW, the pump/boiler will be initially energised via both the room and cylinder stats. This is because the motorised valve will still be in the fully across position (it takes a few seconds for the return spring to move the valve to back to the mid position):
(Thanks to CH4 for supplying the original diagrams, and input from Alane.)
A brief description of the operation of Y-Plan CH system, with diagrams:
If the programmer's power supply was interrupted, the initial state of your system will be like this:
The motorised valve's return spring will have moved the valve to its resting position (DHW only).
If the programmer first calls for DHW the pump/boiler will be energised via the cylinder stat (the path of the electric current is indicated in Red):
The motorised valve will remain in its resting position because no power has been supplied to its motor. In this position the valve only supplies hot water to the cylinder.
If the programmer and room stat now call for CH, as well as DHW, 240 volts is applied to the valve's motor via the room thermostat:
The motor advances the valve towards its mid position.
When the valve reaches mid position, its first micro-switch (the upper switch in the diagram) toggles over:
Now the valve's motor is no longer powered directly from a 240 volt supply. Instead, it receives its power via the diode so that it is fed with DC current. When DC is applied in this way, a ‘sychron’ motor, as fitted to these valves, acts like a brake and holds the valve in this set (mid) position, supplying hot water to both the cylinder and radiators.
When the cylinder stat is satisfied, it toggles over:
Besides applying 240 volts directly to the valves motor, enabling it to advance the valve beyond the mid position, this switching action also removes the power supply to the pump/boiler. This is the reason why one would notice the pump go off momentarily.
As the valve moves further across, it toggles the second micro-switch. Thereby, restoring power to the pump/boiler:
The valve continues to move across until it hits the end stop - stalling the motor. In this position the valve only supplies hot water to the radiators.
When the programmer stops calling for CH and DHW, the valve remains in the fully across position because its motor is still directly powered - this time from the programmer's DHW Off terminal:
If the supply is not interrupted then, when the programmer next calls for CH and DHW, the pump/boiler will be initially energised via both the room and cylinder stats. This is because the motorised valve will still be in the fully across position (it takes a few seconds for the return spring to move the valve to back to the mid position):
(Thanks to CH4 for supplying the original diagrams, and input from Alane.)
Hi Guys,
It's been quite a while since I last visited this forum, and was surprised to find that the old motorised valve posts were still of some use.
Sorry not to have updated the image links in that thread (after closing my account with the ISP that hosted the images), but I didn't think anyone would still remember/find it.
Anyway, I've uploaded the images to a new host (Photobucket) and edited links in the thread accordingly.
Best regards,
John
It's been quite a while since I last visited this forum, and was surprised to find that the old motorised valve posts were still of some use.
Sorry not to have updated the image links in that thread (after closing my account with the ISP that hosted the images), but I didn't think anyone would still remember/find it.
Anyway, I've uploaded the images to a new host (Photobucket) and edited links in the thread accordingly.
Best regards,
John
I wondered why the pictures had come back on the old thread! As you can see I've got the images on photobucket too (hope that's OK - I'm quite happy to add credits to them). We've been messing around trying to reintegrate them with the original text. I hope you agree that the effort above does the job. Congrats on your original work, still the best info. on mid-position valve operation that I know of.
Great job Chris,
I'm glad that you were able to resurrect the old post and give it some new life - the text is a real improvement on the old version.
Also, thanks for the compliment. Though, given the number of mid-position valves in use, it's surprising that there isn't loads of information about them on the Internet.
Cheers.
I'm glad that you were able to resurrect the old post and give it some new life - the text is a real improvement on the old version.
Also, thanks for the compliment. Though, given the number of mid-position valves in use, it's surprising that there isn't loads of information about them on the Internet.
Cheers.
I found this one, but the graphics lack a certain something..
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/plumbing/controls/midpositionvalve.htm
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/plumbing/controls/midpositionvalve.htm
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