Corgi report on Flueless Gas fire incident

doitall · 17 Oct 2006

Agile said:
That question was partly answered in the published information.

The catalytic element was dealing with twice the volume of gas and was unable to fully oxidise the hydrocarbons and became sooted up.

This further reduced the efficiency of the catalytic element producing yet more CO.

Tony

White wash Tony.

Why wasn't the family all killed within the first week of using the fire. The fire was working fine throughout the winter, or at least one assumes if a fire is fitted in November it would be used.

Did any member of the family complain of feeling bad or show any flue like symptoms, Did anyone have cause for concern. ANd if they did why didn't they complain.

Agile · 17 Oct 2006

I have not seen any interviews with the surviving family.

I can accept that the catalytic element became sooted up slowly until the snowball effect of only a small amount of active element left which very rapidly failed.

Individuals can have widely differing attitudes to ventilation. Maybe the mother liked open windows and the daughter liked to live in a fug!

Tony

Softus · 18 Oct 2006

chrishutt said:
The installer has been dealt with by the Courts, but what about the appliance manufacturer and the independent testing house (Notified Body)?

The report (for anyone who hasn't read it) says:

[code:1] 1. The appliance itself was probably supplied by the manufacturer in an
incorrectly adjusted state.
2. The appliance operating pressure was not checked or adjusted by the installing
operative during the commissioning process.

With regard to the first point, this was highlighted during the Court case and CORGI understands that investigations were made by Trading Standards authorities into the appliance manufacturer concerned and their internal quality control and auditing processes were reviewed.[/code:1]
You can't legislate for every occurrence, but it seems to me that this is a such a basic error that there's a case for changing the law to mandate that no appliace works out-of-the-box. Controls could be pre-set such that no gas passes until adjusted by a competent person. If not, then there should be a big label plastered over the gas inlet stating that the pressure setting is probably incorrect.

It's a pity that the report doesn't name and shame the manufacturer concerned, but I expect that it would have been revealed in court. Whoever it is, whilst not legally culpable, should have their name brandished as an example of a dangerous manufacturing process.

Stoyer · 18 Oct 2006

oilman said:
Stoyer said:

..................

No DIY'ER can justifiy doing this type of work himself, .................

Click to expand...

That's a bit exclusive isn't it? Just because people are qualified doesn't mean they do things properly, and conversly, just because they are not qualified doesn't mean they don't do things properly.

Don't make the mistake of tarring everyone with the same brush.

Oilman,

I think you mis-understood me, I not talking about painting a ceiling or hanging a door. If that goes wrong, what's the consequence, it looks poor, that's it !

You wouldn't fit a new gas fire - given no training or qualification ?
I know I could fit it - read the instructions, connect a bit of old pipe, bingo it works !

I have the skill to do the job - but not the training for the tests and the set-up.
Is it right and safe - it is bo****ks - the "DIY'ER" should be locked up.
I cannot believe someone without the knowledge would even attempt it.

Sizing the pipe, checking for leaks before you start, checking pressure's afterwards, carry out ALL tests required should be second nature to a skilled person in that field, never mind it should be set at the factory !
You cannot take the chance

ChrisR · 18 Oct 2006

I thought I'd seen somewhere that it was a Focal Point fire ?

Softus · 18 Oct 2006

Stoyer said:
oilman said:

Don't make the mistake of tarring everyone with the same brush.

Click to expand...

{some words that tar all DIYers with the same brush, for example:}

the "DIY'ER" should be locked up.

Stoyer · 18 Oct 2006

Softus said:
Stoyer said:

oilman said:

Don't make the mistake of tarring everyone with the same brush.

Click to expand...

{some words that tar all DIYers with the same brush, for example:}

the "DIY'ER" should be locked up.

Click to expand...

Softus,

You have made the same mistake - please read my post !

I am saying the un-qualified DIY'ER who fits his own gas fire should be locked up- Don't you agree ?

Key words - Gas Fire !!! - Not the DIY'ER in general

If not - you agree that someone who thinks he'll "have a go at it" is correct to try ?

Softus · 18 Oct 2006

Stoyer said:
You have made the same mistake - please read my post !

Neither oilman nor myself is well known for making mistakes - I suspect it is you who is wrong.

I am saying the un-qualified DIY'ER who fits his own gas fire should be locked up- Don't you agree ?

I don't agree with that postulate.

Key words - Gas Fire !!! - Not the DIY'ER in general

Your kindergarten lessen in reading is wholly unnecessary - I'm fully aware that this discussion is within the context of gas work. I reiterate that I disagree that DIY gas work should be made a criminal offence with a mandatory custodial sentence, which is what I think you are proposing.

If not - you agree that someone who thinks he'll "have a go at it" is correct to try ?

Please define "have a go at it", stating the aptitude, capability and experience of the person, or class of persons, to whom you refer.

Stoyer · 18 Oct 2006

Softus,

Are you saying you are not qualified to, but do fit gas fires ?

Are you also saying that someone with no experience should be allowed to fit there own ?

If un-qualified gas work is not a crimnal offence how can you stop an innocent death caused by someone who thinks its easy ?

Aptitude, capability and experience is zero, no tools, no knowledge, - as I said they are just "having a go"

I suppose we have different classes of a diy'er - but where do you draw the line ?

doitall · 18 Oct 2006

ChrisR said:
I thought I'd seen somewhere that it was a Focal Point fire ?

Yes Chris the "excellsior"

As I keep saying the fire was working for 5 months, what went wrong ??

It's very easy to blame the gas pressure, which was high no argument, but was it high when the fire was fitted or did it the gas valve fail.

What modification did the manufacturers make, and why were nearly 2000 recalled.

The whole episode stinks of a cover up.

oilman · 18 Oct 2006

!!

Stoyer said:
I totally agree with you Tony, but the guy has made a fatal mistake and being trained in the profession be it heating or fires he should know better.

No DIY'ER can justifiy doing this type of work himself, do you know what your doing 100 % -- err --- no - then leave well alone !!

There is no second chance

oilman said:

Stoyer said:

..................

No DIY'ER can justifiy doing this type of work himself, .................

Click to expand...

That's a bit exclusive isn't it? Just because people are qualified doesn't mean they do things properly, and conversly, just because they are not qualified doesn't mean they don't do things properly.

Don't make the mistake of tarring everyone with the same brush.

Click to expand...

Oilman,

I think you mis-understood me, I not talking about painting a ceiling or hanging a door. If that goes wrong, what's the consequence, it looks poor, that's it !

You wouldn't fit a new gas fire - given no training or qualification ?
I know I could fit it - read the instructions, connect a bit of old pipe, bingo it works !

For my own purposes I could fit a gas fire, I do not have formal training, but I have enough knowledge to know where to find the necessary information, and carry out the necessary tests.

I have the skill to do the job - but not the training for the tests and the set-up.
Is it right and safe - it is bo****ks - the "DIY'ER" should be locked up.
I cannot believe someone without the knowledge would even attempt it.

Sizing the pipe, checking for leaks before you start, checking pressure's afterwards, carry out ALL tests required should be second nature to a skilled person in that field, never mind it should be set at the factory !
You cannot take the chance

I think I understood you just fine.

Why should I think you were talking about painting? If you want to hijack the thread, post in "Decorating". I didn't think you were talking about hanging a door either, that would be posted in "Windows and Doors".

You have a low opinion of people. A DIYer may not be qualified but that is not the same as saying they have insufficient knowledge. Unfortunately there are people about who are "qualified" since they have a piece of paper, but they still don't have enough knowledge, or they are unable to apply it, and are therefore just as bad as anyone else who is unqualified.

There are many people around who do not have todays bits of paper, but they know a lot more than you and I put together.

When it comes to assimilating information, I think it is YOU who misunderstood ME.

Softus · 18 Oct 2006

Stoyer said:
Are you saying you are not qualified to, but do fit gas fires ?

I have not, and am not, saying any such thing. I don't do any work that I'm not legally entitled to do.

Are you also saying that someone with no experience should be allowed to fit there own ?

No. Such a person would be committing an offence if they did so.

If un-qualified gas work is not a crimnal offence how can you stop an innocent death caused by someone who thinks its easy ?

You can't stop tragedies, only reduce the risk of them occurring.

Aptitude, capability and experience is zero, no tools, no knowledge, - as I said they are just "having a go"

If that's your definition of "have a go", then such a person would not be competent to install their own gas appliance, therefore would be breaking the law to do it. I approve of the existence of that law.

I suppose we have different classes of a diy'er - but where do you draw the line ?

The line has already been drawn - at the boundary of competence. Are you, or are you not, proposing a change to the law?

Softus · 18 Oct 2006

doitall said:
As I keep saying the fire was working for 5 months, what went wrong ??

The report makes suggestions, but is inconclusive because there is not enough information to be sure.

It's very easy to blame the gas pressure, which was high no argument, but was it high when the fire was fitted or did it the gas valve fail.

The report documents the observation that the adjustment had not been changed from the factory setting.

What modification did the manufacturers make, and why were nearly 2000 recalled.

One could expect that the modification was to change the factory setting. Surely a recall would be the natural result of such a change.

The whole episode stinks of a cover up.

IMHO it stinks of the exact opposite, and the bell of justice being done is pealing loud and clear. Someone is still dead, but you can't bring them back.

ChrisR · 18 Oct 2006

the bell of justice being done is pealing loud and clear

Is it? What action is being taken against the manufacturer?

And that Powermax which killed someone when BG got it wrong - no prison sentence there?

Stoyer · 18 Oct 2006

Softus said:
Stoyer said:

Are you saying you are not qualified to, but do fit gas fires ?

Click to expand...

I have not, and am not, saying any such thing. I don't do any work that I'm not legally entitled to do.

Are you also saying that someone with no experience should be allowed to fit there own ?

Click to expand...

No. Such a person would be committing an offence if they did so.

If un-qualified gas work is not a crimnal offence how can you stop an innocent death caused by someone who thinks its easy ?

Click to expand...

You can't stop tragedies, only reduce the risk of them occurring.

Aptitude, capability and experience is zero, no tools, no knowledge, - as I said they are just "having a go"

Click to expand...

If that's your definition of "have a go", then such a person would not be competent to install their own gas appliance, therefore would be breaking the law to do it. I approve of the existence of that law.

I suppose we have different classes of a diy'er - but where do you draw the line ?

Click to expand...

The line has already been drawn - at the boundary of competence. Are you, or are you not, proposing a change to the law?

Who decides who is competent ?
Does the law protect a member of the public from someone fitting a fire for £40 arrange the night before in the pub ?
If so what is the penalty and does it fit the crime, which to me, the lay-person, is fairly serious.

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Corgi report on Flueless Gas fire incident

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