Noisy Heating and Boiler

Would appreciate your professional view of this problem with my boiler and chs.

We have recently moved into a 4 yr old house with a gas chs (can supply boiler make if it makes a difference but currently at work). It has micro-bore piping and currently suffers from a lot of noise in the boiler (gurgling etc when lit - esp from the airing cupboard) and general glugging type noises in the radiators. Having had 2 of the rads off the water is inky black (the problem was there before I did so, so I don't think I introduced air.)

We had an engineer out to inspect the system prior to starting a maintenance contract and he has told my wife that the problems are down to sludge and air entering the system as the pipes are (apparently) porous. With them being micro-bore, he said, this is more of an issue than conventional systems. He has recommended a pressure flush through to get rid of the dirt etc and the application of some sort of additive to coat the pipes and prevent build up - a full days work. This will mean the system will then be covered for life. However, at £900, this does seems a little steep. Am I being fed a line here or does this seem an appropriate course of action?

Grateful for any feedback.

[quote="reggie_p Am I being fed a line here or does this seem an appropriate course of action?

[/quote]

Yes- sounds like a severe case of b*llsh*t to me,if your copper pipes were porous they would need changing end of.
And £900 is way too much for what he's offered to do-get another plumber to take a look.

What a load of rollocks! I don't suppose the fella who inspected it happens to works for a very large well known service company by any chance? If so, this must be the latest in their line of excuses.

BTW, if the pipe was porous then the water in the rads would be a bright rust coloured.

Average price for 3 bedroom hosue to powerflush would be around £350 + VAT. Powerflushing will only get system about 90% clean at best. As others say copper being porous is utter rubbish.

Microbore systems due to their small bore pipes have a lesser chance of getting cleaned thoroughly.

I would check that your f&e tank is full with water first, then try to bleed rads upstairs, do you get water out of them all? If not sounds like the cold fill is blocked at the point it joins your main pipe work.

Definitely don't use the idiot you have had round. I'll watch out for him on the next series of rogue traders

Hang on lads the op hasn't said that his pipes are copper, maybe they're non barrier plastic, nine hundred quid is taking the p*ss though if it's just for a powerflush.

Thanks to everyone so far - you have confirmed my suspicions. Just to clarify, I believe the majority of the pipe work is indeed plastic micro-bore not copper. Also, the engineer was including the fitting of a 'magna clean filter'. Its quite a few radiators - perhaps 21 or so. Does that change your view at all? It is a very well known British company...... his quote says: "Powerflush (includes drain down, removal of blockages, corrective action to prevent reoccurrence, chemicals, pipe and labour)". Still think its excessive?

reggie_p said:

Thanks to everyone so far - you have confirmed my suspicions. Just to clarify, I believe the majority of the pipe work is indeed plastic micro-bore not copper. Also, the engineer was including the fitting of a 'magna clean filter'. Its quite a few radiators - perhaps 21 or so. Does that change your view at all? It is a very well known British company...... his quote says: "Powerflush (includes drain down, removal of blockages, corrective action to prevent reoccurrence, chemicals, pipe and labour)". Still think its excessive?

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Yes. Still a tad steep for a days work but nothing new from them Gas people in Britain.

Thanks reggie_p. Always a good idea to let us have all the info

There are two types of plastic microbore pipe. As Sooey says, non-barrier and barrier. Basically the non-barrier permits oxygen to pass through the wall of the pipe into the water. The barrier type, as the name suggests, is non-permeable which prevents this action. To be honest, in a 4 y.o. house I would expect barrier to have been specified/installed. (Unless of course the installer was trying to save a few bob ) Also, on one make (grey in colour) the wording on the pipe will be black if non-barrier or red if barrier.

I would querry what is meant by "corrective action to prevent reoccurrence" as the only real way to prevent this happening is to replace the non-barrier with barrier. In which case the £900 is very reasonable for re-piping a 21 rad system

BTW the original BG specification for non-barrier pipework was to ensure that there was a very high concentration of inhibitor in the system which had to be checked annually for dilution.

giblets - tvm

Not sure of the type of pipe as I can't see any writing.... but it is grey!! He wasn't intending to replace the pipe work but had said that the chemical he would use on at least 3 flushes would coat the interior of the pipes and prevent re-occurence.

Having surfed the internet a bit Powerflushing does seem to be a recognised way of going about sorting issues but I remain suprised at it being required on such a relatively new system (and the cost, although I note a Magnaclean filter retails at £100 and I guess we have a lot of rads). I will get a second quote though.

The writing (or rather printing) should be visible all the way along the pipe.

Have just read that the "coating" suggested will "cover the pipes for life" A brave man indeed - suggest you get that in writing

T'would be interested to know what boiler you have, make & model.

BTW are you sure the pipework is actually plastic & not plastic coated copper?

giblets

I will look at the more exposed pipes in the attic but I am pretty sure they are plastic not plastic coated copper - when I had the rads off the pipe work was pretty flexible and that's what he said (for what its worth).

I might have mislead you over the point about the pipe internal coating. In essence he said that without having the work done the company would exclude any issues arrising from this problem from the insurance/maintenance contract cover. If we had it done, it would all be covered 'for life'. Part of the hard sell I guess. I don't think he was suggesting that the coating (whatever that may be) would last for life. None of the powerflush web sites seem to talk about this magical coating so again I was sceptical. Does it seem reasonable?

From reading around it would appear that there are advantages from getting it cleaned out in terms of reduced noise, efficiency, extending the life of the pump and potentially lower heating cost. But as I said - I'm suprised its required on such a young house.

Out of interest, what in particular about the boiler will influence the problem? I'll add details tonight if it helps and have a look at the header tank if it could be adding to the problem.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

there are some discrepancies about what youve been told so far.

the BG quote is higher than the national price but that may be to do with your postcode more than anything else. the magnaclean will add roughly £250 on top of the quote. the amount of rads no makes no difference. the national price is still £560 i believe.....higher for certain postcodes near london.

the flush itself is guaranteed as long as the contract is not stopped for any reason and that the inhibitor is checked and replenished as necessary. BG are under no obligation to do this for you. it is a chargeable job for this to be done on a yearly basis.

i would suggest that if you do get it flushed by BG, and in order to keep the guarantee valid, you should properly add a dose of inhibitor every year and keep the receipts for the inhibitor safe, so if there are any issues you could provide them for evidence of your part of the maintenance. it would then be reflushed for free if required.

bear in mind their price is higher because of their overheads and pricing policy and i cant think of anyone else who will offer you a lifetime guarantee.

nothing will be "coated" and as someone has mentioned you may not get all of the muck out of the pipework.

i have also seen non barrier pipe cause sludging a lot quicker than 4 years, the age of the system is pretty much irrelevant.

i would also be careful how you word the conversations that you have had with BG engineers. as you have already seen there are some lads on here who are very negative about BG and wont stop to ask pertinent questions before they go off on an anti BG rant, possibly giving you poor advice at the same time.

nickso said:

the amount of rads no makes no difference. the national price is still £560 i believe.....higher for certain postcodes near london.

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Not taking any sides in any possible argument, I think the £560 is reasonable now we know there are 21 radiators involved

My guide of £350 was for up to eight rads.

giblets

the boiler is a wall mounted Potterton Promax HE - gas - that's about as far as my boiler knowledge goes!!

nickso

thanks for the balanced view (are you current or ex BG? ) - must admit I thought it best not to name names but others jumped to their conclusions. Bottom line, I have a noisy system - is this a correct approach to take, is it likely to cure it and is it a reasonable cost? From what you are all telling me, its a yes to all of that but a bit on the pricey side (but the gaurantee might be worth it)............fair summary?

At risk of showing more ignorance, to top up the inhibitor is the process: tie off the ballcock in the header tank, drain a bit off, add inhibitor to header tank and then refill undoing the ball cock?

gas4you

thanks - I'm waiting for another quote. By the same token, if a Magnaclean filter retails at £100, does it really cost another £150 to fit. Can't think thats a difficult job for an experienced plumber - hour max? If so I might be in the wrong job - where do I join up? Do I have to do toilets?