New Upvc Door w/ unsolvable leaking & condensation probl

[kat22]

Hello,
I've searched the forum for similar posts but unable to find one relating to my query. Sorry for the long post but it's a mystery for the window company.

Soo, We had new upvc doors and windows fitted a year and a half ago. The windows are great well manufactured and fitted, but the back door, we've been having problems with since august. They're covered under warranty so we've had engineers/technicians coming and going since then and getting nowhere.

The back door has been leaking from underneath the bottom part of the door frame every time it rained. The company were adamant it was due to my pointing, and they wouldn't listen to me when I told them we didn't have cavity walls so even if water was instantly appearing at the bottom of the frame from a meter above the top of the frame, it was unlikely to be my pointing. They wouldn't investigate further until I had repointed. I went to the expense of repointing and low and behold it didn't fix the problem. They then sent out technicians twice after to reseal a few places but still it leaked. After more badgering from me, they finally agreed to get someone to take the door out and re-fit it. The fitters said it was getting in in the bottom corners of the frame and seeping out under; due to the bottom section of the frame being cut smaller so the width wasn't the same as the rest of the frame causing something to happen with the corners? (after about 5 mins of it to explaining it to me I was lost). He then told me he'd put the frame back on a bed of mastic and pumped a tube of it into the bottom frame before securing it and said that'll do the trick. Hurrahhh

He left, I felt elated and happy that I could finally have flooring fitted in my kitchen after living with bare floorboards since the leak. But the happiness hasn't lasted and i still have a wet area at the back.

The threshold that the door sits on is a concrete block 6in thick original to the 1930's house, same as the front door (which the only problem was with a leaking letter box which was easily fixed with a bead of sealant) with no leaking/frame problems and the patio doors. Its my old family home so I've been here for 20+ years and there's never been a problem with the previous back doors.

As the winter months have come in I've noticed that condensation has been running down the actual door adding to wet area, i mentioned this to the fitted but he didn't seem too fussed about it. In the few days since its been refitted, the condensation seems worse on the door! Its rained since as well so i'm finding it difficult to see if the Leak has been fixed.

Could it be the actual door that is faulty rather than the frame?? The front door is exactly the same only it has a letter box.

Part of me feels like the panel insert in the door isn't sealed right and water is seeping in down into the door panel out through the bottom on the door which then collects in door frame threshold, then because there's quite a bit of water it can't escape out of the drainage holes fast enough and finds its way out at the corners. This could explain the condensation collecting as well. But a technician said it was impossible water could be getting in the actual door and that was the end of that convo.

I did think the condensation is only on the back door because the front door is south facing, but then the condensation happens a few hour after sundown.

What do you guys think? Is the door faulty? or is it the fitting? I'm going to try and bare leaving the heating off for the condensation to see if the leak is fixed, but then i think the insulation on the new door should be minimizing condensation not be the way it is and with the front door being ok, the door is at fault.

It's a croydon style door similar to this one -
http://www.we-do-doors.co.uk/item/92844/1403/white/Croydon-upvc-front-doors/Croydon-evros.html

Any help on this annoying problems would be amazing before I go crazy cat lady on the window company.

 

[foxhole]

Hose the doors down from the outside , especially the base and see if anything gets thru. A pic of the actual installation would be useful.

 

[kat22]

So that's the back door from the outside, excuse the paint work, a job for the summer

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• kat22
• 16 Dec 2014
• 1

The bottom of the frame from the inside

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• kat22
• 16 Dec 2014
• 1

The bottom of the frame from the outside. The pipe going inbetween the pipe and the second step is the washing machine waste pipe and doesn't affect anything.

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• kat22
• 16 Dec 2014
• 1

then this is from inside with the wet step and the skirting which has warped.

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• kat22
• 16 Dec 2014
• 1

 

[foxhole]

Are the weep holes clear, if water gets into the bottom frame section, then it should run out thru them.

 

[kat22]

Hi, Yes completely clear. One of the technicians thought water was getting down through the two screws that fix the bottom in place, as when we poured water in various places that seemed to be an entrance point, so it escaped through the drain holes and it leaked out from under the frame itself.
But since then it's been refitted and a tube of mastic put in there. I need to sort the condensation bit so i can properly see if its still leaking from under the frame as well .

 

[Gazman16]

Ok this could be getting in a hundred different ways so its going to be a process of elimination. The fact that they have taken out and refitted the door will hopefully have cut these possibilitys down though.

My first starting point/guess would be that it is soaking in through that exposed concrete step. I would get a couple of coats of bitumen paint on it a.s.a.p.

 

[Meldrew4291]

Looking at your second picture I can't clearly see the drain holes in the bottom of the door frame. However they must be there if water is draining out from under the drain caps on the outside of the frame. I'm just wondering if the door was originally meant to sit on a plastic cill, which would mean the frame would be base drained. Were the drain holes and caps on the outside added afterwards?

 

[Gazman16]

so it escaped through the drain holes and it leaked out from under the frame itself.

I just spotted this bit.
There are 2 options for drainage on a door.
If the door is made to be fitted on a PVC cill, The drainage holes are put underneath the door (called concealed drainage). If the frame doesnt have a cill the drainage holes are made in the front of the frame and covered with those little caps (face drain) as you have.

Now what can happen is that someone messes up in the factory and puts holes in the bottom of the frame and the fitters dont notice so they drill some face drain holes thinking they have been forgotten.

If this has has happened to yours the water is just going straight out of the bottom of the door and soaking into/through the step.

Try pouting some water into the bottom channel and see what happens. Go slow to start with, If you pour a load in and the section fills upto about 15mm it will start coming through the face holes but you want to try and see if there are holes underneath.

 

[kat22]

Thanks for your replies,

Meldrew4291 - The drainage holes and caps have been there from the start.

Gazman16 - when they first came out i asked about the concrete step and they said that shouldn't be the problem, but it could be this as the fitters mentioned the problems with the corners, so this could also be a problem worth looking at?
I've just poured water into the channel and the water is just coming out of the drain holes at the front, i've left it a minute and it looks like water is still seeping into the inside, so refitting hasn't worked. Argh haha

 

[kat22]

My first starting point/guess would be that it is soaking in through that exposed concrete step. I would get a couple of coats of bitumen paint on it a.s.a.p.

I'm not sure if it would help as the previous doors we've had in over the years have never had this problem, but this is the first upvc door on the step. The step is the same as the front door and that doesn't have problems. the only difference is the front door frame is flush to the back of the step.

 

[crank39]

Thanks for your replies,

Meldrew4291 - The drainage holes and caps have been there from the start.

Gazman16 - when they first came out i asked about the concrete step and they said that shouldn't be the problem, but it could be this as the fitters mentioned the problems with the corners, so this could also be a problem worth looking at?
I've just poured water into the channel and the water is just coming out of the drain holes at the front, i've left it a minute and it looks like water is still seeping into the inside, so refitting hasn't worked. Argh haha

That suggests to me exactly as gazman says, it has mistakenly been drained right through (called concealed drainage), the door needs to come back out and turned on its side to check for these slots, if they are there they need sealing with silicone, can't believe they wouldn't of checked for this though, its a classic manufacturing mistake

 

[crank39]

The yellow arrow shows where the 'face drain' slots are and covered with face drain caps just to tidy the hole up, water enters through the slot indicated by the top black arrow filling the chamber up till it reaches the drain level and then it exits, the black arrow underneath shows 'concealed drainage', you would generally have this IF the frame was sat on a pvc cill, water enters as before but it drains straight through the chamber and out over a pvc cill (which you don't have or need because of the stone cill), because the frame is sealed outside to the stone cill its not letting the water drain away hence it drains backwards.

My take on it is that the manufacturer has mistakenly drilled the frame from underneath (bottom arrow) for concealed drainage and the fitter has drilled face drainage holes on site once he realised there was no cill involved and didn't check to see if concealed drainage had been put in by mistake, but if the door has been taken out because of the leak then this is the first thing you would check for, if they haven't then I'm sorry but they shouldn't be fitting, stick to sweeping up

 

[kat22]

Thank you so much!
I'm heading away for 10 days, so i'll have to email them and then ring them when i'm back. I'll let you all know what they say and if it's rectified

 

[Gazman16]

One quick experiment you can try is:

Pull the little cover caps off the drainage slots and again fill with water slowly until you can see the water level with the bottom of the slots (not over flowing).

Then wait. If the water level goes down it must be draining out elsewhere at the bottom of the door proving its a problem with the door/fitting.

Either way I would still paint the step. Concrete is porous and will be soaking up water from the outside and bringing it in, Even if its only a tiny bit.

 

[Meldrew4291]

My father in law had a similar problem to this. The wall under his lounge window was always damp and had been like it for many years. When I looked at it in the summer I soon realised that the face drainage holes had been added as an afterthought, hence my question earlier (they were just a few not very straight holes instead of a factory cut slot.) The window had concealed drainage and should have been sat on a plastic cill but wasn't, so any water that was getting in was simply draining straight into his wall on the inside. As soon as I cut the silicone on the outside water came pouring out.
If the fitters come back it might be worth asking them to try the same.
Or else you could try Gazman's useful tip.
If this is the problem then as Crank says the frame really needs to come out again.