New Consumer Units NICEIC-What does it mean

shakermaker · 17 Jun 2009

Hi

I recently employed a building company to do a refurbishment of a small flat that I let out. As part of the refurb I asked them to fit a 17th Edition Consumer Unit in the let flat, as he stated that his electrician was a "member" of NICEIC, although he stated he could not supply me with a landlords electrical certificate, and we agreed that I would do that independently. I also got him to fit a 17th Edition CU in my own home as well.

He has now submitted his invoice & I (possibly in ignorance) asked him for the NICEIC certification of the new installations but he stated he could not supply these as they were not able to certify their own work.

I'm a little confused, have a misinterpreted what being a "member" of NICEIC entails, i.e., are their "members" & "practising members" of NICEIC if you like.

Little confused at the moment, I'm sure everything is safe etc but reluctant to let tenants move into the let flat if I don't have the new installation certified.

thanks in advance

ericmark · 17 Jun 2009

I was also a little surprised with documentation from a NICEIC registered firm. They supplied the installation certificates which any competent electrician can issue one does not need to be a member of a overseeing body to issue these. But the completion certificate it seems will arrive direct from NICEIC I had expected the company doing the work would issue it.

I do not know what a "landlords electrical certificate" is? I have always used an installation certificate of which there are two types one for multi-signature and one for one signature or a minor works certificate. It states on the certificate you must have the skill required to do the work but it does not say what that is. Most people consider a C&G 2391 will show one has the skill required.

I will watch this post with interest.

PS looked here seems "landlords electrical certificate" is a PIR or installation cert so can't understand why they can't issue?

sparkyspike · 17 Jun 2009

Have you been given an EIC (Electrical Installation Certificate)? This is absolutely essential when changing a CU (plus the other work that was done).

Even if the electrician isn't NICEIC approved, he must give you an EIC. You also require a compliance certificate which you will receive (in a few weeks' time) if the electrician IS approved.

If you have no EIC, you don't know that the work has been done to BS7671 or that it has even been tested.

Incidentally, an electrician cannot hold back an EIC until payment has been made. It is legally yours to have on completion of the work.

sparkyspike · 17 Jun 2009

Just re-reading your post, it looks like you have 'agreed' that you will not be receiving an EIC for the work done, or a PIR for the remaining parts of the installation. Have you had this written into a contract? It seems a bit odd that work would be undertaken that could not be completed. All installation work of this type requires testing and certificating.

shakermaker said:
I'm sure everything is safe etc

You can't be, if the installation hasn't been tested and you have the EIC to prove it.

rebuke · 17 Jun 2009

As I understand it, electricians can be members of a body like NICEIC and not able to self certify, as for e.g. commercial work you don't need to be able to, so they may not have gone through all the necessary paperwork / inspections etc.

They mention not being able to certify their own work, it sounds like perhaps they were expecting it to be notified by you to the LABC, and have them come out and inspect/test then issue the completion certificate, although they should have made this clear to you in advance if that was the case...

Spark123 · 17 Jun 2009

The EIC should have been completed as part of the installation being put into service. If an EIC hasn't been filled out then BS7671 hasn't been followed and they are on their own to say how they have complied with P1 or Part P.
From the point of view of BS7671 it doesn't matter if it is domestic, industrial or commercial. The paperwork still needs to be completed to comply with BS7671.
They have also carried out notifiable work - who should have notified it is between yourself and them but the law has been broken by someone failling to notify it. The fact that the builder was selling his electrician as an NICEIC electrician might make the LABC look at it in your favour, but IANAL. That is of course assuming it hasn't been notified however if they can't be bothered to comply with P1 what are the chances of them abiding by the rest of the building regs??

Click-Sure · 17 Jun 2009

sparkyspike said:
Incidentally, an electrician cannot hold back an EIC until payment has been made. It is legally yours to have on completion of the work.

How about holding back the MCB's?

flameport · 17 Jun 2009

If the company is a member of NICEIC, their details should be available here:
http://www.niceic.com/en/findacontractor/
If they do belong, and are replacing consumer units and so on, they must be able to notify for Part P as well.

Even if they are not, they should still provide an electrical installation certificate.
Did they do any testing when the consumer units were fitted?

ban-all-sheds · 17 Jun 2009

shakermaker said:
I (possibly in ignorance) asked him for the NICEIC certification of the new installations but he stated he could not supply these as they were not able to certify their own work.

My money is on him saying that because he'd lied about being a member of NICEIC...

Pensdown · 17 Jun 2009

sparkyspike said:
Incidentally, an electrician cannot hold back an EIC until payment has been made. It is legally yours to have on completion of the work.

As far as I'm aware electricians and other trades can pretty well do what they like as long as it's in their T&C's.

I can't see anything wrong with holding onto a test certificate until payment has been received.

For PIR's we don't even attend site until the payment has been made/cleared.

sparkyspike · 17 Jun 2009

If your electrician is refusing to issue an EIC, then the power shouldn't be on.

ebee · 18 Jun 2009

"My money is on him saying that because he'd lied about being a member of NICEIC"

That would be my first instinct too.

Incidently NICEIC do not have members they only have Approved Contractors or Domestic Installers (One could be both though).

I wonder if the "Electrician" works for a firm who is NICEIC but is not the Qualifying Supervisor of this firm ie done as a foreigner.

Either way an Electrical Installtion Certificate should have been provided by him to you to show that the installation is safe.

Ask him how he has proof that the installation was safe prior to energising it and again once energised .

Additionally (in England & Wales - Scotland slightly different) He should notify the Local Authority Building Control via his scheme operator (NICEIC) within 28 days of completion or alternatively notify LABC directly 48 hours prior to commencing work and get them to sign this off on completion (or alternatively to ensure that you notify them before he starts) - a fee is payable.
Otherwise a crimminal offence has been commited - Law since 01/01/ 2005

shakermaker · 18 Jun 2009

Hi All

Thanks for the feedback so far, just in case I confused people with the work that was done.

The only electrical work done was to change the CU to a one with dual RCD. I actually just spent a week living in the rented flat whilst I did some work there.

When it came to the Landlords certificate what we agreed was that he would organise it seperately & I just spoke to him yesterday and his view was that this 3rd party certification would cover his installation of the new CU.

I just thought that I would get 2 certificates i.e., one from him for his installation (as he was an NICEIC member) & one for the property as a whole from the 3rd party.

Sorry but I'm confused myself, trying to act in good faith & improve electrical safety but don't seem to be fully understanding this.

ebee · 18 Jun 2009

That`s exactly what is required.
An EIC for his work (changing the Consumer unit) which IS notifiable .

Then somone (might be him or someone else) to do a Periodic Inspection & test Report on the whole property. Often (wrongly) called a safety certificate

"3rd party certification would cover his installation of the new CU. " Oh no it will not

shakermaker · 18 Jun 2009

Thanks ebee, I don't know if I am at fault for making the assumption that being an NICEIC "member" imposed an obligation on him to issue a certificate for the new CU installation. I made this assumption as my parents recently had a new extension requiring new circuits etc & a new CU & they received a certificate for that work.

If I just takeover the situation myself & get someone else to come in & issue the PIR, would this cover the new CU ??

Cheers & thanks

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New Consumer Units NICEIC-What does it mean

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