(P-I-R) Testing a building.

dangerousdave · 10 Jan 2010

Hi there, i'm a qualified spark but don't have 2391 and no real on-site testing experience. The thing is my sister owns a couple of businesses and she is due to get her premises tested by a certified contractor.
I don't want her getting fobbed into providing work for the electrician if it doesn't need doing, afterall i would do the work for her myself if he notes any recommendations in his report. Though i want it to pass 1st time for her.

Therefore any guidence from anyone on here who inspects and tests regularly would be helpful, ie any examples where testing sparks may try and pull the wool over what with the 17th edition raising many a grey area. I would like to give her properties a once over myself before he does test but only in a visual and functional capacity.

I do have a few queries already however. I do know one of the properties has an old type rewireble mains fuse box. Obviously therefore all circuits have no RCD protection and are old wiring. Would/could this cause a problem or should he just place a recommendation on his report and if all goes well elsewhere pass the installation?

There is also both new and old colour wiring so a sticker ought to be placed on the main fuse box, does it have to be a proper BS7671 sticker and can you buy these at any wholesalers?

I will be thankful for any advice forthcoming.

333rocky333 · 10 Jan 2010

dangerousdave said:
There is also both new and old colour wiring so a sticker ought to be placed on the main fuse box, does it have to be a proper BS7671 sticker and can you buy these at any wholesalers?

I will be thankful for any advice forthcoming.

Most places stock them.

The wording is usually as the books, but font size dont matter I think, as various sizes seem to be available.

dangerousdave · 10 Jan 2010

Thanks Rocky, are you a tester by any chance?

333rocky333 · 10 Jan 2010

Only a limited amount.
Start with a good look around for any exposed live parts, broken switches,etc and where cables enter enclosures are suitably glanded,things like that..
These sort of things you can rectify prior to the visit.

dangerousdave · 10 Jan 2010

Yep i'll look out for any simple failings i can put right. I wish i was wise with what things are test failures apart from the obvious really, ie dangerous hazardous wiring and dodgy megga ohms readings. For example i don't know if its best my sister has a 17th edition mcb/rcd fuse board and ditch the old rewireble box?

I have already came across a worrying sign when she had the shop re-arranged only recently, she wanted some sockets repositioning. I found the ring had a spurred socket off a spurred socket off a spurred socket! Meaning 3 double socket outlets where on there own radial from one of the ringed sockets! Naughty i thought so have already erased 2 of those sockets and erased the radial wiring from the single spurred socket. Now that most certainly would have been a fail.

Taylortwocities · 10 Jan 2010

The first thing to remember is that regulations are not retrospective so the tester will grade anything that is a diversion from the current regulations from 1 to 4.
1 is downright dangerous
and
4 is cosmetic or it does not comply with todays regulations. So you cannot fail an installation because it has an old re-wireable fuseboard.

There is a guide to PIRs on the ESC website
find it here http://www.esc.org.uk/pdfs/business-and-community/electrical-industry/BPG4_08.pdf

There is often a problem with testers making work for themselves with remedials. There is a simple solution: make it clear to the guy doing the inspection that his job is to inspect and report only.
Any remedial work would be done by somebody else (you, maybe?) - this is common practise.

Do post back on here if you have any queries over items that come up from the inspection. We love to pick holes on PIRs!

dangerousdave · 10 Jan 2010

Thanks Taylor for your advice, the link looks like it sustains some bulk info cheers. I have already told my sister to let him know that she has a spark for a brother but will get her to put the point of test only across to him that makes sense.

The shop isn't huge and only has one ring, lighting and a few radial spurs for refridgerated equipment so i shouldn't think it will take him long for that property. I think my sister said he's asked for £100 per property sounds reasonable enough to me, is this the going rate anyone?

Taylortwocities · 10 Jan 2010

I'd charge a bit more! He's got to do the inspection and go write a report too. Sounds reasonable to me.

Adam_151 · 10 Jan 2010

As its a small place with not many circuits, and no reason why it cannot be isolated (?), then I expect it'll be tested in much the same way as a doestic and you should expect a pretty full schedule of test results, with only a few limitations

Limitations are likely to be insulation resistance between live conductors, anything high level (external lighting perhaps), and stuff which shouldn' affect teh shedule is going to be things like no inspection of concealed cabling (thats obvious), percentage of points opened only etc

And yes, a pre-inspection is a good idea,remember that the inspection counts for more than the testing! (hence periodic inspection report.... its an inspection with testing as appopiate, not the other way around

)

On larger buildings expect a lot more limitations!

And price is low, I assume these are *very* small premsises?

dangerousdave · 11 Jan 2010

Thanks Adam, the building consists of 2 seperate businesses, one being a newsagent which is getting tested first, next door (same building however) is a bakery. They are served electrically seperately as the bakery shop has a 3 phase supply whilst the newsagent is single phase.
However both are attached inbetween with a staircase upstairs leading to 2 flats. Only one however being electrically sound, the other flat is in need of a rewire and is pretty much gutted out.

I beleive only the businesses are in need of certifying as the council inspectors have been round with there clip boards.

dingbat · 11 Jan 2010

dangerousdave said:
Hi there, i'm a qualified spark but [have] no real on-site testing experience.

Don't worry, you are in the majority. It's not right, but it is normal.

Therefore any guidence from anyone on here who inspects and tests regularly would be helpful, ie any examples where testing sparks may try and pull the wool over what with the 17th edition raising many a grey area.

There are no grey areas, really, the regs are the regs.

But I suspect that you, like the majority of electricians, don't really know how to use them or to fully understand what is required. As for 'pulling the wool', this is more likely to be an ignorance of the requirements than any deliberate foul play. Few electricians are actually competent to carry out inspections and correctly report on condition.

As others have noted, although inspections are carried out to the latest regulations - in which case expect a number of codes which will warrant an 'unsatisfactory' assessment - they are not meant to be applied retrospectively. Whether or not RCDs are required will depend largely on how the installations is to be used and by whom.

There is also both new and old colour wiring so a sticker ought to be placed on the main fuse box, does it have to be a proper BS7671 sticker and can you buy these at any wholesalers?

Like I said, you are in the majority here - read Chapter 51 of BS 7671 and all will be clear.

skenk · 11 Jan 2010

dingbat said:
As others have noted, although inspections are carried out to the latest regulations - in which case expect a number of codes which will warrant an 'unsatisfactory' assessment - they are not meant to be applied retrospectively. Whether or not RCDs are required will depend largely on how the installations is to be used and by whom.

Just because the installation won't comply with 17th doesn't mean defects will be deemed unsatisfactory (code 1 or 2). Usually it will be code 4 (assuming it complies with previous versions of regs).

Paul_C · 11 Jan 2010

BS3036 (rewireable) fuses are still recognized by the current regs. There can be cases where a BS3036 fuse in conjunction with certain circuit arrangements might not meet the current requirements fully for disconnection times etc., but there is nothing which would make BS3036 fuses automatically mean non-compliance with the current edition (which, as noted, does not apply restrospectively anyway).

As for gray areas, I think there's certainly room for them when it comes to what different people consider the appropriate PIR code for something which doesn't meet the current regs. in full. Just look through the threads here and see the disagreement over what code a non-RCD socket should attract, for example.

dingbat · 11 Jan 2010

skenk said:
dingbat said:

As others have noted, although inspections are carried out to the latest regulations - in which case expect a number of codes which will warrant an 'unsatisfactory' assessment - they are not meant to be applied retrospectively. Whether or not RCDs are required will depend largely on how the installations is to be used and by whom.

Click to expand...

Just because the installation won't comply with 17th doesn't mean defects will be deemed unsatisfactory (code 1 or 2). Usually it will be code 4 (assuming it complies with previous versions of regs).

But - and here's the voice of experience speaking - most installations will exhibit departures that most electricians will code as a 2 at least. Most installations fail to fully comply with the regulations edition in force at the time of installation, because most electricians don't understand those requirements. I was suggesting he should 'expect' there to be such observations and recommendation codes.

dingbat · 11 Jan 2010

Paul_C said:
As for gray areas, I think there's certainly room for them when it comes to what different people consider the appropriate PIR code for something which doesn't meet the current regs. in full. Just look through the threads here and see the disagreement over what code a non-RCD socket should attract, for example.

But the regulations are just that - regulations, black and white, very little grey. But there is no guidance in the regulations (and hence no grey there, either) as to what code a particular observation would warrant as it is up to the inspector to apply his experience and make a decision.

I do agree, however, that the industry has yet to firm up on a set of recommendations with which everybody will agree.

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(P-I-R) Testing a building.

Paul_C

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