Yet another problem argh!

tamz · 7 Feb 2010

Is it wired correctly?
The boiler needs a permanent live. If it only has a switch live it will go into a venting sequence for about 10 mins then into a low output sequence for about another 15 mins. (bit of a pain when you are fitting them).
Without a permanent live it will do this every time it starts. But this is just speculation without seeing it.

From cold turn boiler stat up full then if you press the button with the chimney sweep type sign (bottom left) and hold it for about 10 seconds the orange light will come on and the boiler will go to full power.

Hold the pipes under the boiler, left is flow and you should feel the water heating and coming through. Keep an eye on the temp. If the system is running free (no air or blockages, pump running ok) it should take over 10 mins before the temp gets anywhere near max (90 deg on this boiler).
If there is any problem with the circulatuion the temp will rise quickly and when it gets above 90 the boiler will cut off, start a bit banging and clicking and the display starts showing other symbols (can't remember exactly but it can be read as 98 99 102-3 whatever).
The full power can be cancelled by pressing the button again or it will go back to normal after about 15 mins, might go to low output for another 15 mins.

Better to get someone to check it out. Whatever it is it should not be hard to fix.

These are good boilers.

Meme21 · 7 Feb 2010

tamz said:
Is it wired correctly?
The boiler needs a permanent live. If it only has a switch live it will go into a venting sequence for about 10 mins then into a low output sequence for about another 15 mins. (bit of a pain when you are fitting them).
Without a permanent live it will do this every time it starts. But this is just speculation without seeing it.

Thank you very much for your help tamz. I am not sure what you mean by a permanent live and a switch live. Would this be at the timer?

Story is that after powerflush the timer packed in (or at least this is what the guy said) he switched everything back on and there was no display CH stuck permanently on. He didn't seem to have much of a clue about the electrics so I got a WB accredited RGI out and he brought an electrician with him. They did a bit of rewiring and put a new timer in. That is when this fault occurred, when he first switched on the boiler after fitting the new timer. He said he didn't know what the flashing on the display meant but as the boiler then fired away he said it was probably just a one off. This is the guy that can't come back for a week.

Not sure now whether to call in WB, wait for a week and get the same RGI back, get a different RGI in (but who?????) or what to do next. The whole saga is getting a bit ridiculous.

tamz · 7 Feb 2010

They did a bit of rewiring and put a new timer in. That is when this fault occurred,

Thats the clue then

It is most likely an electrical fault.

I got a WB accredited RGI out and he brought an electrician with him

A lot of electricians don't know a lot about heating controls

Not much work in changing a timer. In most cases it is a direct replacement on to old backplate with no wiring needed. If it was a different backplate there is only L N and 2 ( 3 if mid position valve) switch wires. Hardly difficult.
Only way it would have been a bit awkward to do is if it was an old EP2000 type programmer which was on before, with everything wired to the clock. Even that is not difficult.

The blue light on front of the boiler will be on all the time if permanent live is present.

get a different RGI in (but who?????)

Now that IS the hard bit

Try to get someone who knows about both the heating system and the electrics.

Wish you luck

heatingman · 7 Feb 2010

Meme21 said:
so I got a WB accredited RGI out and he brought an electrician with him.
He said he didn't know what the flashing on the display meant

Both these statements are a concern, A WB Rgi who can't or doesn't understand wiring, and he clearly has not got a clue on the product. If you got the Rgi from WB I would be on the phone making merry hell

So much for using a manufacturers accredited installer, not worth a diddle that advice.

Meme21 · 7 Feb 2010

Thanks again Tamz - Blue light is lit on the boiler all the time. I suspect the fault is electrial, but why the first timer went I don't know. It was the old original timer that the installer put back in - so must have been 23 years old.

Heatingman - You would think wouldn't you that if you get an RGI from the WB website they would know a thing or two.

And that is the problem - I have had three Gas Safe Registered engineers out to date.
First the installer, who didn't do a power flush and left me with radiators that wouldn't heat and a valve - the one to the hot water tank - that was fused/broken. Didn't want him back in the house.

Second, an RGI recommended by a neighbour to do a power flush and get my radiators working. Also fitted the automatic bypass as installer hadn't put one in. Did the flush and took the bad radiators off and hosed them out. They now work a treat! (This is when the timer went). He couldn't fix the problem and fiddled around with the electrics not sure what to do.

Third - Called WB accredited RGI who brought an electrician fitted new timer and valve. Since this time have been getting the flashing symbol problem.

Just don't know who to trust anymore, or perhaps it is a problem with the boiler itself. Only thing I can think of is to insist that WB send out an engineer and then at least it will either fix the problem or we will know the problem lies elsewhere.

At the point of despair now and have paid a small fortune for all of this.

londonboy · 7 Feb 2010

I'm an electrician.

This symbol appears to be linked to overheating etc.
Do we think the most recent electrician has removed the pump overrun wire?

londonboy · 7 Feb 2010

To Meme21:

Permanent live = constantly live when the spur is turned on (or wherever the boiler gets its power from, maybe a plug and socket somewhere).

Switched live/line = only live when calling for heat (ie programmer and thermostats turned on/up)

Pump live = only live when the boiler is heating, and for 5/10mins afterwards to dissappate heat from the heat exchanger.

If your boiler didnt have the pump connected to the pump live terminal then the hot water (70/80 degrees) will be sitting inside that heat exchanger, which could cause the overheat symbol.[/i]

Meme21 · 7 Feb 2010

Just tried to switch the central heating on from the timer. The boiler made a bit of a noise and then immediately went to the flashing symbol. This time no amount of turning the dial worked to get it to fire up - the display continued to flash and the boiler seemed to die. I switched the CH off and then on again. Very very slow and hesitant and then all of a sudden decided to fire up with no flashing symbol.

I am wondering if this is still a problem with the timer. The boiler is now going away with no problem (until of course it turns off again).

This is mad

tamz · 7 Feb 2010

Meme so you had had 3 guys "fiddling about" with the electrics and none of them know much about them

Unfortunaely it is hard to give a correct answer in this case without seeing the system.

Pump has to be wired directly to the boiler or so the boiler directly controls it.

If WB recommended the 3rd guy get on to them and complain. You don't need to be good to get manufacturer accreditation, you just need to buy a lot of their boilers

If you get him back in and he doesn't know what is wrong get him to get on the phone (his phone) to WB tech. You shouldn't have to pay him as he left the fault like that.

You have my sympathies, sounds like you have been unlucky. That is the problem with this trade now, everybody thinks they can go on a course and be a black belt in plumbing/heating in a few weeks or months when in reality it takes many years of proper training and experience.

There are a lot of good guys out there but there is even more dross. Unfortunately we end up getting tarred with their brush.

Good luck

marcr · 7 Feb 2010

Sounds like a fault at the boiler. Maybe even the boiler itself.
Someone needs to check that all the leads are fully pushed home on the board and components, especially if a few pairs of hands have been working in there.
Seems to me now like a warranty visit from WB would fix it, even if it was chargeable. At least the right person would be looking at it. Might be free or might be expensive. Not too sure how it works pricewise. Fixed price repair anyone?

Meme21 · 7 Feb 2010

Thanks - going from bad to worse - boiler has now stopped working altogether just died. If this is a faulty boiler doesn't say much for WB.

Steady · 7 Feb 2010

This is what the WB service manual for your boiler has to say about this fault code (E9) accompanied by the two inverted 'L' symbols:

The display shows alternatively the
CH flow temperature and . The
gradient limitation is active. The primary
temperature is rising too fast
and the burner has switched off for
2 minutes. See error E9.

Error code E9:

Open vented CH system:
Is there enough water in the feed and
expansion tank?

no: B Top up system.
B Vent appliance.
B Press the reset button for 3 sec and release it.
After releasing the appliance re-starts.

Sounds like it would be worth checking the feed and expansion cistern to eliminate this. It should have a few inches of water in it at least.

Meme21 · 7 Feb 2010

Thank you Steady.

Have just been and checked the tank - plenty of water, so can rule that one out. Am coming to the conclusion that it is either air in the boiler - don't know whether it was vented after flushing but it makes gurgling noises when I try and turn it on - or whether it is electrical.

This morning the inverted L showed and the number 25 so presumably that was the flow temperature?

I really really hope it is something as simple as venting the boiler

tamz · 7 Feb 2010

I really really hope it is something as simple as venting the boiler

You could try killing the power to it for a few seconds, depending how it is wired up, either press the button on the top left or switch off the spur. The blue light will go off.
When you turn the power back on and switch the heating on it will go through an automatic venting sequence for about 10 mins. You will hear it sorta pulsing and stopping and 2 circle things will be displayed.
After that it will go into a low output for another 15 mins or so where it will heat very slowly and the display will flash between the temp and a couple of lines something like an H if i can remember right.
After this time it will go to normal output, you will hear the fan speed up.
You may have to repeat this.
If it is just air in the boiler and not a blockage, this should move it.

heatingman · 7 Feb 2010

if you have temp gradient symbol and no flashing LED, the burner has shut down for two minutes to clear excess temp, it should re-fire after the 2 mins, it might do this a few times while it builds up some heat into system. If its a slow system ie ufh,trench etc the boiler operating parameters can be altered to overcome this conflict, quite common on first cold start. I personally would also be looking at pump/by-pass and primaries, are they sized and set correctly. The boiler is protecting itself

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Yet another problem argh!

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