Building Regs - Swapping a ceiling rose

Hi,

What are the current building regs for replacing a ceiling rose with a light fitting? I am under the impression you can no longer simply choc block the live and push it into the ceiling? Does everything have to be accessible within the lightfighting - ie so I cant push the live up into the ceiling void?


Thanks

when could you??

The building regulations say that the BSI/IET wiring regulations are one way of complying it is not so cut and dried.

The BS7671:2008 says that screw connections need to be accessible for maintenance however crimped, soldered and spring retained connections don't need to be accessible and there are special junction boxes using spring clips.

The big problem in using a chock block and shoving it into the ceiling space is when latter someone removes a floor board and feels around and puts their hand onto a stray wire from the chock block.

As far as access goes well one can remove the fitting.

If the contacts can be touched with a 1mm rod from above then it does not comply with IP4X and any cover must need a key or tool to remove so insulation tape will not comply.

You will note many items which have small screws which need to be removed to open lid and one often wonders why and you don't replace it. Well it is to comply with the tool or key rule.

In real terms one could say a tool is required to lift floor boards so insulation tape is good enough but this is down to interpretation and some common sense. With a house which complies with BS7671 then I would not be too worried as even if worse case happened then the RCD would protect but many houses are not wired to latest regulations and don't have RCD protection and most accidents don't happen because of one thing wrong but a collection of faults and you need to use some common sense.

There are exceptions to most rules and so it is not so simple as saying you can't use chock blocks. For example with a concrete floor above as with some flats then one would not be considering access from above.

Do remember you asked for the rules not is this common practice and I would think most people when removing a ceiling rose would if room permitted replace it with a chock block inside new fitting but if no room would attach a short length of flex tape up and shove into ceiling regardless as to if complied with regulations or not.

You could use one of these as they are classed as a maintenance free box and can be pushed up into a ceiling void.

Connect the cables from the rose into them and then come out in some flex.


http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html

I would consider a live connector block pushed up into the ceiling void behind a light fitting to be accessible - though not good practice.

Have seen this done many times, block is usually taped up. Bit of a bodge.

However, I can only assume your new light fitting does not have the space to accomodate the block.

Can you carefully arrange the wiring so it will fit; or can you cut a recess into the ceiling without entering the void?

You could fit a circular white plastic pattress between the fitting and the ceiling (more chance of obtaining from an electrical wholesaler).

You could also flush a conduit BESA box into the ceiling with a wooden noggin fitted from above. If you have a plasterboard ceiling you could fit a circular dry-line box. I should stress both these options could lead to a lot of mess and inconvenience.

You may have access above. If so you could fit a 20 amp 4 terminal junction box above to accomodate the old wiring. Then run one 1.0/1.5 twin+earth cable to the light. The wiring at the jb will be the same as it currently is at the ceiling rose. Use earth sleeving on all bare earth wires.

I would try and get the live termination to go inside the light fitting it is good and best form of practise.
You can usually do it with 1 segment of 5A connection block, if the cable are 1.00mm.

sparkwright said:

I would consider a live connector block pushed up into the ceiling void behind a light fitting to be accessible - though not good practice....

Click to expand...

Accessible, yes, but not in a noncombustible enclosure.

sparkwright said:

You could also flush a conduit BESA box into the ceiling with a wooden noggin fitted from above. If you have a plasterboard ceiling you could fit a circular dry-line box. I should stress both these options could lead to a lot of mess and inconvenience.
.

Click to expand...

But it is the correct way of doing it, and only needs to be done once.

I suggest care before using a dry-line box unless you want a Del Boy moment when the householder decides to fit a heavier-than-expected luminaire.

MalcofArabia said:

You could use one of these as they are classed as a maintenance free box and can be pushed up into a ceiling void.

Click to expand...

526.3 makes no mention whatsoever of "maintenance free" connections.

Might as well use one of these:

http://www.discount-electrical.co.u...e-torpedo-shaped-downlighter-junction-box-16a

they're cheaper and avoid all the non-compliance problems.

120.4
Ashley maintenance free JBs, came out just after the new requirements BS7671:2008 was published.
I know there is still a grey area about whether they meet the requirements, but Ashley claim they are permittable and comply. But they will!

Well - they would say that, wouldn't they.

Right now they do not comply, and I'm not aware of the following:

1) Any way in which EICs can claim that an installation complies with today's regulations when it in fact complies with ones not yet written.

2) How simply accepting the claims of a manufacturer which are not based on any official standards for design, construction or compliance testing counts as exercising reasonable skill and care.

But with requirement 120.4, there is scope for new materials and products being brought on to the market post publication of current standards.
When and where would you consider we draw the line?
If a manufacturer is claiming it complies, they must be able to support this and who would/should be liable, taking in to consideration about manufacturers instruction etc....
or do we end up with the requirements being rewrote every time something new arrives?

Thanks for your all replies.

So if I use junction box the one Ban-All-Sheds reccomended - link below I will be meeting the current regs??

http://www.discount-electrical.co.u...e-torpedo-shaped-downlighter-junction-box-16a

Thanks

Maintenance free terminals provide a solution where accessibility is an issue.

Tests, including long term vibration, shock test, long term connection test, pull out, voltage drop, temperature rise and exposure to corrosive atmospheres validate the suitability of these terminals. Equally suitable are solutions such as a ‘joint made by a compression tool’.

Maintenance free terminals have the additional advantages of allowing the direct insertion of solid, stranded or flexible conductors, and allowing the connection of up to four conductors from 0.5mm2 to 4.0mm2(see Hager J501, Hager 803 and Hager J804).

Click to expand...

For down lights

17th Edition Downlighter Junction Box Ashley 20A loop in and loop out
Model:501
17th Edition Downlighter Junction Box Ashley 20A loop in and loop out

- Downlighter Junction Box
- Junction box complete with incoming and outgoing cable clamps.
- 3 plate terminals with separate terminals for flexible cords.
- Dimensions: h = 52mm x w = 53mm x d = 27 mm

The IEE Wiring Regulations state that terminals shall not be subject to undue stress, i.e. taking weight of cables or fittings. Currently a high proportion of Junction Boxes are installed behind Downlighters or decorative light fittings, where moving the Junction Box in to position after wiring could cause stress on the terminations. With the NEW Ashley J501 Junction Box, the above obstacles can be overcome.

Ashley can provide a quick and easy means of connecting fixed wiring to flexible cables of downlighter fittings based on the following 3 main benefits:

1. Easy to use
2. Wide application suitability
3. Compliance with latest regulations

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For pendant, ceiling and wall lights

17th Edition Junction Box, Maintenance Free Junction Box 20 Amp 4 Terminal

The Maintenance Free junction box from Ashley is a 17th edition compliant junction box that has been manufactured to accommodate the increasing need to fit junction boxes in so called 'inaccessible' areas.
# This 17th Edition compliant junction box provides a secure and maintenance free means of connecting fixed wiring in any indoor application. Wherever it is placed: under floor situations between ground and first floor in houses, or where jointing of cables is used to aid rewiring.
# The Hager J804 junction box 17th edition is recommended to be used in residential and commercial buildings, refurbishments and re-wires, power and lighting circuits and circuits wired in sheathed cables.
# In today's junction boxes market, the 17th Edition compliant junction boxes from Hager are unrivalled: no other junction box provides as many features that allow Contractors to comply with the latest wiring regulations.
# This maintanance free 17th edition junction box allows the connection of up to four conductors from 0.5mm2 to 4.0mm2 per terminal

Click to expand...

PrenticeBoyofDerry said:

But with requirement 120.4, there is scope for new materials and products being brought on to the market post publication of current standards.
When and where would you consider we draw the line?

Click to expand...

I would draw it before you get to the point of installing equipment where the maker says that it performs in a particular way but can offer no independent verification of that or evidence which shows that it conforms to a standard which includes properly defined testing methods.

If a manufacturer is claiming it complies, they must be able to support this and who would/should be liable, taking in to consideration about manufacturers instruction etc....

Click to expand...

You would both be liable if something went wrong.

Good luck getting the manufacturer to cough up.

or do we end up with the requirements being rewrote every time something new arrives?

Click to expand...

That would be onerous, but the regulations could be written to say that any new products can only be used if they conform to their applicable BS/EN/etc standards.

Take these maintenance free JBs, for example. Don't you think that, just with traditional ones, and with all sorts of other wiring devices and accessories that there ought to be a standard to which they conform? Off the top of my head I can think of areas such as resistance to fire tested by a hot-wire, the ability to pass the current the maker says it can without overheating, the extent to which the spring contacts resist conductors being pulled out, how their performance holds up over time as multiple insertions and removals are done, as temperature cycles and mechanical stresses are experienced and so on.

I know that Ashley say

"Tests, including long term vibration, shock test, long term connection
test, pull out, voltage drop, temperature rise and exposure to
corrosive atmospheres validate the suitability of these terminals."

and it may seem cynical to say "well they would say that", but with no standards defined for what tests should be carried out, and how, and how the item should perform, then any maker can put any product onto the market and say it's OK. At the moment if you pick up a JB and it says "BS 6220" on it then (counterfeits apart) you know that it's got to conform to standards which the BSI consider necessary.

At the moment you have no guarantee of anything when you pick up a "maintenance free" JB.

[EDIT]Badly formed quote corrected.[/EDIT]

Am I being naive then, when they claim it is 17th edition compliant?
As that seems to be one hell of statement to make, if they can't back it up!