solar therma. and MCS registration.

Joined
20 Dec 2010
Messages
379
Reaction score
34
Location
Hampshire
Country
United Kingdom
I have to say, working in the trade as a sole trader is not cheap. gas safe registration, Part P registration, calibration of test equipment, and that is all before you earn one penny.
A friend and i were looking at getting into solar thermal, taking the long term view that this was the way to go. You can understand paying for the training courses, but what on earth is the MCS registration all about. Oh let me guess, more money for some paper pushing organisation that really does not give much back. Here in Hampshire i have not seen much in the way of installations by sole traders, although i must assume that they have occurred. but really, if you are already registered with Gas safe or elecsa for instance, why on earth do you have to pay for yet another registration. I would love to move into this area but really cannot aford it.
is anyone getting much requests for Solar thermal, would be interested so find out the reality of the demand.
 
Sponsored Links
Don't bother with MCS mate, many muppets have paid a fortune for it & are jumping through hoops.............. :LOL: :LOL:

Most Greenwash products suppliers will operate an 'Easy MCS' system for their products, where they'll do all the paperwork etc & commission/sign off these items when you've installed it. On Solar thermal for example, we install Navitron if it's a MCS job. Same with ASHP & GSHP etc, etc there's always a way round it............. ;)
HTH

If you PM me mate I can enlighten you further, out of the public gaze................ :LOL: :LOL:
 
Navitron has to be the worst solar kit in the world.
Just ripping one to pieces,ch expansion vessel,water filled via filling loop(no glycol), useless controller,bobbins panels and all piped in 15mm copper.

Solar kit for the bandq bodgers IMHO

Surprised a CEO of a decent plumbing firm would sanction the supply and
Fit of such rubbish.
 
Navitron has to be the worst solar kit in the world.
Just ripping one to pieces,ch expansion vessel,water filled via filling loop(no glycol), useless controller,bobbins panels and all piped in 15mm copper.

Solar kit for the bandq bodgers IMHO

Surprised a CEO of a decent plumbing firm would sanction the supply and
Fit of such rubbish.

Isn't that installer error?
 
Sponsored Links
No, all supplied by naviCON and as per the instructions left with customer.
 
Don't bother with MCS mate, many muppets have paid a fortune for it & are jumping through hoops.............. :LOL: :LOL:

Most Greenwash products suppliers will operate an 'Easy MCS' system for their products, where they'll do all the paperwork etc & commission/sign off these items when you've installed it. On Solar thermal for example, we install Navitron if it's a MCS job. Same with ASHP & GSHP etc, etc there's always a way round it............. ;)
HTH

If you PM me mate I can enlighten you further, out of the public gaze................ :LOL: :LOL:

Completed a biomass installation a while back and was thinking about getting a registered firm to do the solar.
Do you think they would sign off the biomass install as theirs so that a claim could be made? ;) ;)
Or would it be better to approach the boiler supplier?
Me and the brothers were thinking of getting in on the act.
I'm in NI and afaik the rhi is being extended to here some time next year. Installations from the beginning of this month are elgible for payments afaik which will begin at the latter part of next year for domestic installs..
There was a government consultation paper by Arlene Foster a while back which I was looking through which has all the details.
Pending of course the money supply is maintained. :mrgreen: King will need to keep the printing machines well oiled. :D
Edit. Found it..
http://www.detini.gov.uk/economic_appraisal_into_the_northern_ireland_rhi_-_june_2011.pdf
 
Navitron has to be the worst solar kit in the world.
Just ripping one to pieces,ch expansion vessel,water filled via filling loop(no glycol), useless controller,bobbins panels and all piped in 15mm copper.

Solar kit for the bandq bodgers IMHO

Surprised a CEO of a decent plumbing firm would sanction the supply and
Fit of such rubbish.

Isn't that installer error?

Of course it's installer error.
There's a lot of sour grapes with the £5-6K solar thermal install mob, keep polishing your MCS certificate mate........... :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
 
Don't bother with MCS mate, many muppets have paid a fortune for it & are jumping through hoops.............. :LOL: :LOL:

Most Greenwash products suppliers will operate an 'Easy MCS' system for their products, where they'll do all the paperwork etc & commission/sign off these items when you've installed it. On Solar thermal for example, we install Navitron if it's a MCS job. Same with ASHP & GSHP etc, etc there's always a way round it............. ;)
HTH

If you PM me mate I can enlighten you further, out of the public gaze................ :LOL: :LOL:

Completed a biomass installation a while back and was thinking about getting a registered firm to do the solar.
Do you think they would sign off the biomass install as theirs so that a claim could be made? ;) ;)
Or would it be better to approach the boiler supplier?
Me and the brothers were thinking of getting in on the act.
I'm in NI and afaik the rhi is being extended to here some time next year. Installations from the beginning of this month are elgible for payments afaik which will begin at the latter part of next year for domestic installs..
There was a government consultation paper by Arlene Foster a while back which I was looking through which has all the details.
Pending of course the money supply is maintained. :mrgreen: King will need to keep the printing machines well oiled. :D
Edit. Found it..
http://www.detini.gov.uk/economic_appraisal_into_the_northern_ireland_rhi_-_june_2011.pdf[/QUOTE]


You can always ask them mate.

You watch this space mate the whole RHI is going to get kicked into touch, after the first report of a Hospital close or reduction in a front line service. They've already pulled the rug from under ASHPs, thank gawd, piles of junk!! Along with the FIT it's all going to be cancelled.

So all the Greenwash salesmen will be returning to their former career as used car salesmen............. :LOL: :LOL:

Keep polishing your worthless MCS certificate chaps!!.......... :LOL: :LOL:
 
MCS registration is something I have been looking into, even paid the £649 for Easy MCS pack and worked through half of it before realising (Duh!) that the hidden costs in time and training etc were going to cost the company between £5000 and £8000 EACH YEAR to remain registered!

It simply isn't possible for us (small firm with 13 employees) to justify this kind of outlay on the hope that we may be able to recoup it over the year with a few renewables jobs.

A) there simply are not enough renewables jobs out there
B) There is too much to claw back in time, money and effort to make it worthwhile
c) The recent U-turn by the government on feed in tarifs has made the industry very nervous and doesn't instil confidence that there is any kind of stable foundation upon which to base such an investment. When will the next renewables rug be pulled out from under our feet?

As a costing example:

One off costs:
Easy MCS or other training to get you through the assessment (YOU WILL NEED THIS) £650
Time for one person to dedicate to putting the several hundred documents in order in excess of 100 hours (@ min wage £608.00)
Files, paper, printing ink etc £150

Annual fees:

Membership of REAL £190 to £500 depending on size of small firm (way more for larger firms
MCS annual fee - £110 + £10 per installation
MCS inspection £854 + one day lost work
MCS paper consultation - £300 plus one day lost work
Specific indemnity insurance for each renewable £700+ each
Fee for specific reneable registered £350+ each
Annual calibration of equipment £140 to £300 depending on equipment each

Regular costs but 2+ years etc

H&S refresher courses on Manual Handling, COSHH and Working at Heights for each employee involved in renewables (this includes sales and office staff!) example for 8 would be 1.5 day training @ £1095 including certification plus lost revenue at say £2500.
Renewing other specific renewables training - Solar Thermal £350 and 3 days off
Unvented Cylinders £280 + day off
Energy Efficiency certificate £300 + day off
Heat Pumps £450 + 2 days off

etc etc.

As well as all the above, you MUST keep on top of the paper work which is incredibly burdensome. Monthly internal revew meetings, documented on two documents, non conformity logs, dealing with customer complaints, keeping a purchase order log to ensure that what you quote for is what you actually supply and complies with MCS approved equipment.

Who wants or needs an annual inspection of their office? None of this is really necessary or workable for the few renewables jobs which are out there.

The government really need to try running a small business themselves before exacting such burdensome, beaureacratic pronouncements on industry. Although MCS is a good business model for larger businesses who need to keep an eye on quality control, for the small business (which most of the plumbing and renewables market consists of in terms of knowledge and ability) it is a time and money pit which none can afford to slip into.

I can see MCS being the major stumbling block upon which the renewables marked falls and will end up with the UK NOT meeting the Kyoto protocol agreement which will then cost us millions in fines! Guess who will pay for that?

Some quango has spent 2 years justifying their own jobs creating this MCS registration money-go-round and I for one can't afford to play. The trouble is, it just puts the price of the renewable technology up for the public too so everyone looses!

Very disappointed in the whole scheme.

More info:

http://forum.downsizer.net/archive/the-cost-of-mcs-membership__o_t__t_52230.html

Napit’s fees:
http://www.napit.org.uk/downloads/MCS Scheme Fees SCH0020 v4.1 (09.11).pdf

http://www.navitron.org.uk/page.php?id=137&catId=65
 
Well, it seems to be a deliberate ploy often used by our wonderful governments (Labour and Conservative) that they offer incredible incentives to get a market moving, wait until lots have jumped on the band waggon to cash in and as the mass production machine kicks in, they then pull the rug out and let it find it's own level. It happened with Solar thermal, again with incorporation for small businesses, loft and wall insulation and now with Solar PV.

Yes, the cost price of the PV units will come down, they have been doing so for over a year now with cheap imports from China (do we really want to give all our money and power away overseas?). Now that a lucrative incentive has been stopped, the dirth of stocks held by manufacturers and wholesalers has to go somewhere so prices will fall to tempt buyers. The problem is the massive difference between what is affordable in this economic climate by general members of the public and what a scheme like MCS contributes to that? Lowering costs of the product itself will not cover this.

I did a little survey, asking general members of the public what their thoughts were on renewable energy devices such as solar thermal, pv, ground source heat pumps etc and how interested they were in saving money - long term on their energy bills. Not one person fully understood what I was talking about, nor had any idea about what incentives there are, how they could get them or if it was an affordable option. Therein lies the problem with microgeneration renewables in the UK. THE PUBLIC DOES NOT KNOW and if they do, they can't afford it with or without the incentive vouchers, feedback tariffs or otherwise.

Bad decision making at lower governmental level all round. There's a shock!
 
GreenCat saved me. We were due for our 2nd yearly audit for our MCS accreditation, solar thermal only.

I have not used it for two years, well if I'm honest, maybe twice; getting our paperwork in place for inspections....

It has offered me nothing at all, we have been installing solar thermal systems for around 7 years now, mostly new build, at a rate of about 50 per year. The last year has been dire, no interest in solar thermal for new build. This has mostly led us to question our MCS status and its financial implications on our company.

Looking for help around the internet regarding using MCS only points to start up firms offering to get you MCS registered, hardly any offer ongoing support and want to help you understand how much the day to day use of MCS will actually affect your company.

Why MCS cannot be more along the lines of Gas Safe, I have no idea? Granted, the use of RHI and grants may increase the need for paperwork trails, but surely the 19 steps required by MCS could be vastly simplified to encourage tradesmen like ourselves to get on with what we are good at. It almost implies that us trades people do not understand the admin side of our own business's, like the elusive enquiry, or the inconspicuous invoice. We have enough paperwork to deal with as it is. I would gladly accept MCS if:

1) it got us guaranteed work
2) the public saw it as a Gas Safe'esque mark for renewables (which it pretends to be)
3) paperwork vastly reduced, most important pieces being cost to consumer, estimated running costs and that it is correctly notified. This leaves the installer to concentrate on offering a hassle free, economical (price and running) and quality installation, which essentially is what we are all about when offering a boiler change etc.

Sorry to rant on, but I feel this thread has arguments from both sides, to which I wanted to add my two pence worth. The assumption by some trades and people within the construction industry that MCS is the benchmark for renewable energy installers is still slightly misguided. At this point, I'd say the MCS market is guilty of a fair few start up firms from FiT boom and people trying to get lucky on any future schemes.

Lloyd.
 
I'm really sorry to hear that your Solar jobs have dried up but if it's any consolation, they have here too. Only the large jobs (multi-million) who don't care about a few hundred £s subsidies from the government are going ahead now.

I've also looked into the PAS 2030 for Green Deal accreditation and it is just a dumbed down version of MCS but what I can't find out from anyone is what hidden costs there are such as staff training etc.

All this hoop jumping and paper trails doesn't stop the biggest cowboys of them all, it merely legitimises them to operate their boom and bust businesses but now, at least their work is insured.

If you are doing well out of MCS, please would you let us know because so far I have yet to meet or talk to ANYONE who has found MCS to be a benefit to their business.
 
I'm really sorry to hear that your Solar jobs have dried up but if it's any consolation, they have here too. Only the large jobs (multi-million) who don't care about a few hundred £s subsidies from the government are going ahead now.

I've also looked into the PAS 2030 for Green Deal accreditation and it is just a dumbed down version of MCS but what I can't find out from anyone is what hidden costs there are such as staff training etc.

All this hoop jumping and paper trails doesn't stop the biggest cowboys of them all, it merely legitimises them to operate their boom and bust businesses but now, at least their work is insured.

If you are doing well out of MCS, please would you let us know because so far I have yet to meet or talk to ANYONE who has found MCS to be a benefit to their business.

I am sure it will pick up again as the PV boom calms, as it seems to be. Yes that's what we have found, people who want it, will have it regardless if we are MCS or not as they don't seem to know, or care of any grants. I am happy to offer a discounted price off my own back to not go through the MCS route, ensuring the customer does not suffer.

You are correct, this paperwork glorifies people who have the money to buy MCS status year on year, and then make cut backs on the installation side of things. Ultimately the customer suffers, going against what MCS is about. This doesn't account for everyone by all means, but I have seen it a lot on jobs we have had to sort out, even on new build scale it has happened.

We have not benefited in any way with MCS, apart from lighter wallets and a bulk supply of scrap paper now. I also would genuinely like to hear if anyone is doing well out of it, as it might point out areas in which we are not operating correctly for example.
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top