Fire rated downighters and smokehoods

nimh · 3 Apr 2012

Do fire rated downlighters need smokehoods?

Understand lighting is subjective but if installing mains voltage GU10 downlighters in a galley kitchen 2.6m wide what from experience is the best/sensible:

distance apart lengthwise?

distance from wall above worktop?

wattage and spread?

Are LED GU10 any good?

Are low voltage any good as I have been told they are more trouble than they are worth?

Thanks

Chri5 · 3 Apr 2012

Only between properties, if a flat resides above your ceiling.

Hoods are designed to seal on excessive heat giving a barrier, all a fire rated down light does is prevent the spread for a time.

On a gallery kitchen you will have 600mm odd counters, 350mm odd wall units, go about 750 of the wall all round which allows some light to cover counters. So 2600, go 750 and 1850.

Since you now have a 1100 gap between lights, if you can mimic that in sets of two, so the next bank of two are 1100 for the last.

Consider silly things like the hood causing shadow light, and will the hood have inbuilt light.

I have 6 gu10 running 4.9w white light LEDs in a kitchen 2.5x 2.8 and that's fine. Although under wall units I do also have Led strips these ones are great http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LEDT11WW.html

Lighting is subjective, for all the hassle of elv and transformers to run 12v, plenty love the light they produce.

ban-all-sheds · 3 Apr 2012

Chri5 said:
all a fire rated down light does is prevent the spread for a time.

By containing an intumescent material which expands just like a firehood does.

17thman · 3 Apr 2012

during the mathematics of deciding between where you want them and where you can fit them. you need to me mindful of how close to a joist they will be fitted, see manufacturers instruction

nimh · 3 Apr 2012

ban-all-sheds said:
Chri5 said:

all a fire rated down light does is prevent the spread for a time.

Click to expand...

By containing an intumescent material which expands just like a firehood does.

My kitchen is 5m long x 2.6m wide. So as I understand it you are saying that I should have two rows of downlighters 750 from the sides and ends and approx 1100 apart both widhways and lengthways

17thman said:
during the mathematics of deciding between where you want them and where you can fit them. you need to me mindful of how close to a joist they will be fitted, see manufacturers instruction

I understand this and because the floors above are up visualising it is a little easier and I might have to juggle between 1000 and 1200 to fit between.

ban-all-sheds · 3 Apr 2012

nimh said:
ban-all-sheds said:

Chri5 said:

all a fire rated down light does is prevent the spread for a time.

Click to expand...

By containing an intumescent material which expands just like a firehood does.

Click to expand...

My kitchen is 5m long x 2.6m wide. So as I understand it you are saying that I should have two rows of downlighters 750 from the sides and ends and approx 1100 apart both widhways and lengthways

No.

Absolutely not.

No way.

Never.

Ever.

Under any circumstances.

What I'd say is this:

"Why on earth does it not occur to you that the reason you're going to need 8-10 lights in that room is that you are trying to light it with lights which are SFA use for actually lighting up rooms?"

Your plan is madness - use lights designed to do the job you want them to do, not ones specifically designed to actually not do it.

nimh · 4 Apr 2012

In error I posted the wrong quote and it should have read

Chri5 said:
Since you now have a 1100 gap between lights, if you can mimic that in sets of two, so the next bank of two are 1100 for the last.

My kitchen is 5m long x 2.6m wide. So as I understand it you are saying that I should have two rows of downlighters 750 from the sides and ends and approx 1100 apart both widhways and lengthways

Read more: //www.diynot.com/forums/electr...-and-smokehoods.318881/#2355479#ixzz1r5qYhV9O

But I am totally confused by the response from ban all sheds. What must someone never do?

What won't downlighters do? What is SFA? If you aren't suggesting downlighters what are you suggesting?

ban-all-sheds said:
nimh said:

ban-all-sheds said:

Chri5 said:

all a fire rated down light does is prevent the spread for a time.

Click to expand...

By containing an intumescent material which expands just like a firehood does.

Click to expand...

My kitchen is 5m long x 2.6m wide. So as I understand it you are saying that I should have two rows of downlighters 750 from the sides and ends and approx 1100 apart both widhways and lengthways

Click to expand...

No.

Absolutely not.

No way.

Never.

Ever.

Under any circumstances.

What I'd say is this:

"Why on earth does it not occur to you that the reason you're going to need 8-10 lights in that room is that you are trying to light it with lights which are SFA use for actually lighting up rooms?"

Your plan is madness - use lights designed to do the job you want them to do, not ones specifically designed to actually not do it.

riveralt · 4 Apr 2012

nimh said:
But I am totally confused by the response from ban all sheds. What must someone never do?

What won't downlighters do? What is SFA? If you aren't suggesting downlighters what are you suggesting?

It's your kitchen so you can put any amount or type of lighting you want.
Downlights - even those that swivel - are designed to give spots of light in a relatively concentrated area.
This means you will need to sometimes quadruple the number of lights you need to get close to the standard pendant lamp equivalent.

You could probably easily provide plenty of light for your kitchen with two centrally located 60w incandescent or energy saving lamps.
Whereas in your downlight scenario you might need nearly 500w and still not have sufficient light where you want it.
But as I said its your kitchen.
If a customer want ceiling mounted downlights then I fit them 600mm from the walls edge (almost on line with the worktop edge) and approximately 1000mm apart from each other.
I would split the lamps into banks of two/three or lamps and have each bank controlled from their own individual switch or dimmer.
I would supplement the downlights with under cupboard lighting as well.

RF Lighting · 4 Apr 2012

He has an irrational phobia of downlighters for some unknown reason.

They do a brilliant job of lighting a room providing the layout is properly designed.

As a general rule of thumb in a kitchen you want to be aiming for the first downlighter to be about 500mm from the wall and then every 1000mm on centre after that, to end up back at 500mm from the other wall.

You will obviously need to adjust these figures to suit your room, but that's the general plan.

nimh · 4 Apr 2012

riveralt said:
Whereas in your downlight scenario you might need nearly 500w and still not have sufficient light where you want it.

This is a problem I have thought about. A lot of wattage. They aren't my lighting of choice but the ceiling in the kitchen is very low at 2m in an old cottage. It has at the moment a surface ceiling mounted fluorescent which is really not safe and the only options I can see are either downlighters or surface ceiling mounted spots above the wall cupboard voids such as the sink and cooker. Everyone seems agreed on 1m apart but there are conflicting views over distance from wall of 500, 600, 750. I am aware that the further from the wall they are the more likelihood of casting shadows and I will add under cupboard lights.

RF Lighting · 4 Apr 2012

I tend to go for 500mm from the wall as worktop is 600mm wide and you don't want the light source behind you.

If you are worried about running costs then have a look at LED lamps. There are some great 5W ones about these days, and whilst they are not quite as bright as a 50W halogen lamp, they are not far off, and at a tenth of the electrcity they can be a big saving.

riveralt · 4 Apr 2012

RF Lighting said:
I tend to go for 500mm from the wall as worktop is 600mm wide and you don't want the light source behind you.

The 500/600/700 from the wall issue will depend on the beam angle of the lamp. Too wide an angle and to close to the wall and you will get shadows from the overhead units (if there are any).
This gives an indication of what I mean:
http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/article/spotlight-beam-angles/
move the slider to see the difference - the narrower the beam angle the closer to the wall you can go.

RF Lighting said:
If you are worried about running costs then have a look at LED lamps. There are some great 5W ones about these days, and whilst they are not quite as bright as a 50W halogen lamp, they are not far off, and at a tenth of the electrcity they can be a big saving.

Agree with that - you pay more upfront (considerably more in some cases) but you probably save money in the long run.
I fit these to some of my customer's kitchens:
http://www.downlightsdirect.co.uk/h...ownlight-brushed-aluminium-natural-white.html
Generally two type of LED lights (my words) - clinical white and yellow white (similar to standard light bulbs)

RF Lighting · 4 Apr 2012

I love those halers downlighters. I fitted 4 in a bathroom recently and they are absoloutely brilliant.

I'd go with warm white my self, but again it's down to personal choice.

JACKC · 4 Apr 2012

Please be aware of the clearance between floors for heat dissapation of downlights. You may not have enough room inbetween your ceiling and the upstairs floor. Also is yours a lathe and plaster ceiling as its an old cottage. If it is then its no downilghts for you in my opinion.

nimh · 5 Apr 2012

Thanks to all who have contributed.

JACKC said:
Please be aware of the clearance between floors for heat dissapation of downlights. You may not have enough room inbetween your ceiling and the upstairs floor. Also is yours a lathe and plaster ceiling as its an old cottage. If it is then its no downilghts for you in my opinion.

With regard to the void between floor and ceiling. Both floor and ceiling are being completely replaced with plasterboard ceiling and chipboard floor. The void is 7" and I am buying downlighters which are 105 mm which should give me 70mm clearance. Hopefully this should be enough. I was going to insulate the floor with with rockwool.

Is this a problem?

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Fire rated downighters and smokehoods

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