Advice needed for my old dad

Can anyone please help? My dad is in his late seventies and has Parkinson's disease, so doesn't want a load of disruption in his life. However, he lives alone in a large seven bedroom house in North Yorkshire, and has a rather complicated central heating and hot water system, that unfortunately has recently gone wrong. He fitted most of the system himself, as regulations weren't as strict in those days, so he understands how it should operate.

In brief, he's got a 40 year old 80kW boiler in the cellar, a 30 year old 40kW boiler in the first floor bathroom, and a manifold with several manual valves in the cellar, by which he can direct the flow from each boiler. Until recently he's been using the cellar boiler to heat the downstairs, and the bathroom boiler to heat the first and second floors. However, the cellar boiler has stopped working, so he's using the bathroom one to heat the whole of the house, which is not going to be powerful enough next winter (he's been told he needs 140kW total).

He's called out "The Gas Board", who condemned the cellar boiler, and told him that the whole system needs to be replaced with a single condenser boiler, and new pipes throughout the house to replace the various existing pipe materials, at a cost of £6-7,000. This doesn't include replacing floorboards or carpets.

My Dad's view is that the cellar boiler just needs a clean, and that he doesn't know where a condenser boiler could go except in his kitchen, and he doesn't want it there. Also if he's going to pay someone to do the job he wants everything put back properly afterwards. He also thinks they've only said they have to redo the whole system as they don't understand how the current set-up works.

Questions are:

1) If he's correct that the cellar boiler just needs a clean, can this now be done after it has been condemned by British Gas? I'm sure there may be implications if he tries to make an insurance claim if it blew up afterwards.

2) If the cellar boiler has to be replaced, can a new boiler be plumbed into the existing manifold set-up with the bathroom boiler, or would this invalidate any warranty on the new boiler?

3) If he has to replace both boilers with one condenser boiler, does this need to be mounted on an outside wall?

4) Is it reasonable for him to expect whoever does the work to replace all floorboards and carpets afterwards, and if not, are they expected to employ a separate contractor to do this?

5) What would be a reasonable price for him to expect to pay to fit a new 140kW condenser boiler and connect it up to his existing radiators and hot water system?

Any help, advice or comments would be appreciated,

Jim

In answer to number 2, and please bear in mind I'm not a plumbing and heating engineer, I'd have thought it not possible. The new boiler will operate at a higher pressure and therefore the old pipe work probably won't be able to take it.

And I think you're right about number 1.

I'm sure that someone will be along soon to give professional advice.

Presumably it has been condemned for safety reasons. If so you have 2 choices.

Find someone who can do whatever it takes to make the condemned boiler work safely.

Or replace the boiler and as much as is necessary to make the system comply with current (compulsory) building regulations. For a 40 year old system that'll be most of it.

North Yorkshire.

Not a million miles away and sounds interesting.

I think the 120kw even for 7 bedroom house is way over
the top. Heating for a normal 4 bed house comes in at roughly 24kw most
of the time. So just 48kw for an 8 bedroom place.
The gas bill must be huge at the moment.

Don't mind taking a look depending where it is.

Send me a personal message.

If this is a genuine post hen non pros should really go and make a cup of tea.

As to the solution? A site visit is essenial withba view to making the most of the pipe work that is there but making the most of the kW your dad is burning. From your information he has wasted A LOT of money in gas over the years.

I am working for a couple now who think they know far more than they do. And I am almost finishing another job where my lip is halfthe size it was on day one due to Google warriors and the s0dding EST.

Alec - I might send you round there next week

Sad though you dad's condition is, is it really wize him living alone in such a big place? Surely it would be better to sell up and get him one of those assisted living places where the occupiers are as independent as they NEED to be?

P.S. if he needs 140kW I'll donate £20 to charity.

The house is too big for him, he needs to sell up and down size.

Andy

qbeta said:

If he's correct that the cellar boiler just needs a clean, can this now be done after it has been condemned by British Gas? I'm sure there may be implications if he tries to make an insurance claim if it blew up afterwards.

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It would have to be inspected, cleaned, serviced and put back in use by a Gas Safe registered contractor. BG are notorious for condemning usable boilers but you can't be sure in this case. There are few working parts to go wrong with an old (floor standing, cast iron?) boiler, but even when new the efficiency would have been around 65%. Gas prices have risen so much that a new high-efficiency boiler could be justified, even if the old one could be restored to 'as-new' condition. It's doubtful that it could be revived; spares may not be available.

qbeta said:

2) If the cellar boiler has to be replaced, can a new boiler be plumbed into the existing manifold set-up with the bathroom boiler, or would this invalidate any warranty on the new boiler?

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Probably could be. If there have been corrosion problems with the existing system, there would be sludge in the system which could quickly kill a new boiler. You could flush the system out and install filters to protect the new boilers, that is assuming his pipework is useable. A new condensing boiler could operate at low return temperatures (more efficient) which would cause condensation & corrosion in the old boiler, wrecking it. It would be simplest to install adequate new boiler capacity to ensure the old one wasn't needed, just leave it in place as a stand-by and to keep Dad happy.

A new boiler would be less able to tolerate leaks than an old cast-iron lump and tracing and sealing leaks in a mysterious pipework system could take a lot of time.

qbeta said:

3) If he has to replace both boilers with one condenser boiler, does this need to be mounted on an outside wall?.

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The flue and air intake need to be routed to an outside wall, the condensate needs to go into a drain, but it can be pumped. On, or adjacent to, an outside wall is simplest, it can be fixed some distance away, but that depends on the boiler.

qbeta said:

4) Is it reasonable for him to expect whoever does the work to replace all floorboards and carpets afterwards, and if not, are they expected to employ a separate contractor to do this?

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It would be simplest to engage one contractor with responsibility for everything; the main contractor can employ sub-contractors for parts of the work (e.g., electricians, builders, etc..). The danger is that, if he employs two contractors, one will blame any defects in their work on the other.

qbeta said:

5) What would be a reasonable price for him to expect to pay to fit a new 140kW condenser boiler and connect it up to his existing radiators and hot water system?

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Sorry, my crystal ball is in for its annual service. Just get a few contractors to quote and make your choice. Cheapest isn't usually best. You really need someone (i.e., a family member or trusted friend) in attendance to supervise the work.

PS Edited to clarify; amendments in italics.

Just to emphasise the main points:

DIYers should not be responding to this, and if they do, they should be ignored.

A Gassafe person can pronounce the boiler OK if it is so after the work.

A new boiler for the whole house with weather compensation could nigh on halve the gas bill.

I hope all goes well for you and him. My Dad had Parkinson's for more than twenty years before he died in 2004. I wish you well.

Thank you to everyone that has taken the time to respond to my post.

First of all it was a genuine post from me.

Secondly, even with my limited knowledge of boiler sizes, I agree that 140kW sounds very high. However, the house is over 100 years old, detached, and made of stone with no wall and little window insulation.

Thirdly, although suggesting that he moves somewhere smaller is a sensible and logical thing to say, it is not particularly helpful, as we'll still have a house to sell with exactly the same issue.

Onetap thanks to you in particular for answering all my questions.

From what you're all saying I think he needs to assume he'll need the whole lot replaced, and if anything can sensibly be reused without affecting efficiency or warranty then that will be a bonus.

The numbers you quote (80kW and 40kW) don't sound right for kW, but they do sound right for BTUs

80 thou BTU is not unusual for a biggish oldish boiler in a biggish house (and the boiler name might be for example "Potterton Profile 80e" to indicate its rating).

However 80 thou BTU is (about) 24kW which is much more sensible

80+40=120 thou BTU is about 36kW which again is reasonable if the smaller one heats part of the big house.

The reason modern boilers are often in the region of 30kW (=100 thou BTU) is because they are sized as combis to give a good flow of instant hot water with no cylinder.

A modern 30kW condensing boiler will fit in a kitchen cabinet, and need not be a combi, it can be unpressurised (vented) and can run the hot water cylinder if you want, being modern it will be very much more efficient, and will modulate its output according to demand ("turn the flame down"). However the old control valves may need changing and the house will probably need to be zoned.

BTW if it really was 120kW output, it would cost about £6 per hour in gas while it was running flat out.

Thanks JohnD,

I suspect you're correct about the units. That would make much more sense.

A large seven bed stone house is likely to need more than 120,000Btu/hr.

The poor man has Parkinson's, that doesn't mean he didn't know what he was doing when he installed these boilers. It was considered good practise at the time to oversize everything and keep the controls basic.

Of course, I could be wrong...

A 40 year old 80kW boiler would be pretty big. My old mum had a 1972 30kW Glow-Worm, and it was bigger than a fridge, and assembled in-situ with sectional cast-iron parts.

p.s. If you measure all the radiators h x w and add them together in sqare metres, that will give an idea of how much heat they can handle.

Dan_Robinson said:

Alec - I might send you round there next week

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Did he say he wanted weather compensation?

I find it odd if a retired person lives in a seven bed house and heats all of it and can pay the £5000 per annum gas bill.

Tony