Would this be one earth connection too far?

Hi, I though I knew my house electrics inside out after living here since 1975 but after a first bathroom gut and refit (bath out and only a shower left in due to our advancing years) i got my first close underfloor inspection of all the earthing in the bathroom area.

Conclusion :- I have no direct earth from the stopcock (incoming water supply) directly and unbroken to the main MEB board.

All my well read diy electrical books show One continuous earth cable from the stopcock to main board and One continuous earth cable from the incoming GAS meter to the main board. These being the two main earthing routes marked as very important.
There are many other earth cables from various c/u's etc., all terminating at a multy way earth block at the main board.

My bathroom zone earths (cold/hot/central heating pipes etc., are continuously (unbroken) bonded and return to the shower C/U (RCD/MCB) enclosure and thereafter on to the MEB main boards multipoint earth block.

Now then, my question is this - Do I need to run a separate continuous earth cable from the stopcock to the main board multipoint earth block as well as what is already in place as discribed???

The reason I ask is not because a stopcock earth is absent and has been since 1975 without incident, it is that I do not wish to put one in and cause a problem if a fault should occure. My logic here is this:- If a fault occurs at the shower making all pipework in the zone LIVE and dangerous will the current wish to take the shortest route to earth via my proposed new stopcock earth AND COMPLETELY BYPASS MY SHOWER C/U BREAKERS, or will it perhaps take both routes at the same time and TRIP the shower c/u breakers - and thus keep me alive

This is one to give a little thought to, take your time and phone a friend if need be as is could well be one earth connection too far

Hope you can help.
Regards,
Jim.

jim2490 said:

Hi, I though I knew my house electrics inside out after living here since 1975 but after a first bathroom gut and refit (bath out and only a shower left in due to our advancing years) i got my first close underfloor inspection of all the earthing in the bathroom area.

Conclusion :- I have no direct earth from the stopcock (incoming water supply) directly and unbroken to the main MEB board.

All my well read diy electrical books show One continuous earth cable from the stopcock to main board and One continuous earth cable from the incoming GAS meter to the main board. These being the two main earthing routes marked as very important.
There are many other earth cables from various c/u's etc., all terminating at a multy way earth block at the main board.

My bathroom zone earths (cold/hot/central heating pipes etc., are continuously (unbroken) bonded and return to the shower C/U (RCD/MCB) enclosure and thereafter on to the MEB main boards multipoint earth block.

Now then, my question is this - Do I need to run a separate continuous earth cable from the stopcock to the main board multipoint earth block as well as what is already in place as discribed???

The reason I ask is not because a stopcock earth is absent and has been since 1975 without incident, it is that I do not wish to put one in and cause a problem if a fault should occure. My logic here is this:- If a fault occurs at the shower making all pipework in the zone LIVE and dangerous will the current wish to take the shortest route to earth via my proposed new stopcock earth AND COMPLETELY BYPASS MY SHOWER C/U BREAKERS, or will it perhaps take both routes at the same time and TRIP the shower c/u breakers - and thus keep me alive

This is one to give a little thought to, take your time and phone a friend if need be as is could well be one earth connection too far

Hope you can help.
Regards,
Jim.

Click to expand...

No thought needed at all - get an electrician in to check things over if you are worried..........what you have posted here shows that you have no idea what you are talking about, regardless of how many DIY electrical books you have read.

Sorry.

duplicate

The gas, water and other supplies including central heating pipework must (if they are extraneous conductive parts) be bonded from their entry points into the premises to the MET (Main Earth Terminal).

Supplementary Bonding must (if required) be applied in the bathroom to connect together all extraneous and exposed conductive parts and Circuit Protective Conductors of the location (bathroom).
It does not run to the MET.

Bonding is to ensure that all the parts bonded are, in the event of a fault, at the same potential - so that you do not receive a greater shock should you be touching two of them simultaneously than if you were touching one part.

It is not to achieve a path to earth - that is the purpose of the CPCs and the Earthing Conductor - nor to bypass or trip other MCBs.

Earthing is to operate the protective device and limits the duration of a fault.
Bonding is to equalise potential and limits the magnitude of a fault.

Electrifying said:

jim2490 said:

Hi, I though I knew my house electrics inside out after living here since 1975 but after a first bathroom gut and refit (bath out and only a shower left in due to our advancing years) i got my first close underfloor inspection of all the earthing in the bathroom area.

Conclusion :- I have no direct earth from the stopcock (incoming water supply) directly and unbroken to the main MEB board.

All my well read diy electrical books show One continuous earth cable from the stopcock to main board and One continuous earth cable from the incoming GAS meter to the main board. These being the two main earthing routes marked as very important.
There are many other earth cables from various c/u's etc., all terminating at a multy way earth block at the main board.

My bathroom zone earths (cold/hot/central heating pipes etc., are continuously (unbroken) bonded and return to the shower C/U (RCD/MCB) enclosure and thereafter on to the MEB main boards multipoint earth block.

Now then, my question is this - Do I need to run a separate continuous earth cable from the stopcock to the main board multipoint earth block as well as what is already in place as discribed???

The reason I ask is not because a stopcock earth is absent and has been since 1975 without incident, it is that I do not wish to put one in and cause a problem if a fault should occure. My logic here is this:- If a fault occurs at the shower making all pipework in the zone LIVE and dangerous will the current wish to take the shortest route to earth via my proposed new stopcock earth AND COMPLETELY BYPASS MY SHOWER C/U BREAKERS, or will it perhaps take both routes at the same time and TRIP the shower c/u breakers - and thus keep me alive

This is one to give a little thought to, take your time and phone a friend if need be as is could well be one earth connection too far

Hope you can help.
Regards,
Jim.

Click to expand...

No thought needed at all - get an electrician in to check things over if you are worried..........what you have posted here shows that you have no idea what you are talking about, regardless of how many DIY electrical books you have read.

Sorry.

Click to expand...

I asked for help and an answer and I received sarcasm and a putdown. Possibly you do not know the answer,possibly you do but are reluctant share it as your stock answer is obviously - call an electrician -you know nothing.

I made no pretence at being a professional, I posed a straight question which you felt unable to answer in a civil manner.

I have no intention of calling in an electrician -never ever called one since moving in. Have virtually rewired my home, fitted several consumer units and just completed a completely new shower circuit installation without the aid of an electrician - just my pathetic diy books and advice from an ex work friend who is a spark - not bad for someone who knows nothing.

If your home has had no work since the 70's, there will be several areas where it no longer complies, and it would certainly warrent an EICR report produced (something recommended for every ten years in a domestic install).

Main protective bonding is require to water/gas and possibly other things, and on a domestic should be 10mm these days.

Supplementary bonding in the bathroom can now be omitted if other factors are met.

An electrician can carry out an EICR and then inform you where you need to target any work.

jim2490 said:

shortest route to earth via my proposed new stopcock earth AND COMPLETELY BYPASS MY SHOWER C/U BREAKERS, or will it perhaps take both routes at the same time and TRIP the shower c/u breakers - and thus keep me alive

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The fault currrent going to earth by what ever route will be coming from the Live incoming supply and will have to pass trough one ( or maybe more ) fuses or MCBs. If the fault current is high enough then the fuse will blow ( or the MCB will trip ) The more routes to earth the higher the current and so a faster blow on the fuse without the exposed metal work becoming high voltage.

If you have RCDs ( the things with test buttons ) then the fault current to earth needs only be about 30 mA for the RCD to trip as it measures the difference between the currents on Live and Neutral which in the absence of any faults will be equal.

You got sarcastic answers because you were yourself a bit sarcastic with the "give it some thought" comment.

" I posed a straight question .....I have no intention of calling in an electrician -never ever called one since moving in. Have virtually rewired my home, fitted several consumer units and just completed a completely new shower circuit installation without the aid of an electrician - just my pathetic diy books and advice from an ex work friend who is a spark - not bad for someone who knows nothing."

Yikes! You'll turn everyone into BAS clones! Your final four words?
The fact that you didn't realise that your question was not straightforward is worrying, especially as you list works that you've done which should all have commenced with a visual and measured assessment of the bonding and earthing system in the house.
Don't trust DIY books on their own - too many make electrical work look like Lego and, of course they do soon get out of date.

jim2490 said:

Have virtually rewired my home, fitted several consumer units and just completed a completely new shower circuit installation without the aid of an electrician - just my pathetic diy books and advice from an ex work friend who is a spark - not bad for someone who knows nothing.

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I hope you don't intend using the shower. Where have you fitted these consumer units - I hope you weren't charging for it. Are you a pub chancer ?

I took it to mean he'd installed several CU's in his own home for whatever reason...

May the first ones were a learning curve in electrical installations, fire fighting and first aid...... At least he was alive to do the second one.

Aragorn84 said:

I took it to mean he'd installed several CU's in his own home for whatever reason...

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I'm not sure you'd need several in 35 years. Two maybe? You would think in that replacing a CU you would notice the lack of MPB, or apparently not.

well he said hes installed a "shower CU", which from the description appears to be on a submain from the main CU.

So perhaps the several are similar small units in various locations around his property?


I guess hes the only one that can tell us what he means though!

jim2490 said:

I made no pretence at being a professional, I posed a straight question

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No - you wrote a passage so full of misconceptions and loony ideas as to beggar belief, and to show beyond any doubt whatsoever that you are so lacking in understanding that you should not be encouraged to do anything except get an electrician.

I have no intention of calling in an electrician -never ever called one since moving in. Have virtually rewired my home, fitted several consumer units and just completed a completely new shower circuit installation without the aid of an electrician

Click to expand...

• So for all of the circuits you installed, how did you go about deciding what cable and protective device to use?
  
  
• Did you know which circuits can be ring finals and which cannot, and what the advantages and disadvantages of each are?
  
  
• Did you know what the two main lighting circuit topologies are, and what the advantages and disadvantages of each are?
  
  
• How did you calculate maximum demand and did you know how diversity can be used?
  
  
• What are the 3 different types of domestic single-phase supplies provided in this country, how would you recognise them, and what differences do each make to the requirements for the rest of the installation, particularly any outdoor supplies?
  
  
• Can you correctly identify all components and connections of a circuit by method of testing or otherwise? In doing so can you identify or recognise anything wrong or dangerous with the circuit?
  
  
• Do you understand how the way in which you install cables affects how much current they can carry?
  
  
• What are the rules concerning cables concealed in walls, partitions and under floors?
  
  
• What are the rules for cables run outdoors, buried in the ground or overhead?
  
  
• Where cables need to be joined, how should this be done / not be done and in what circumstances are different methods acceptable?
  
  
• Can you identify extraneous conductive parts, and do you know the requirements for main and supplementary bonding of them? (EDIT - actually, we know the answer to that one...)
  
  
• Do you know which circuits should be RCD protected?
  
  
• How did you isolate your supply so that you could connect up your new CUs?
  
  
• What did you do about testing? Did you know what tests you should have carried out on the installation - what sequence you should have done them in and at what point you should have energised the installation?
  
  For each test did you know what was being measured and why it was important?
  
  How did you carry out the tests, and with what equipment?
  
  What results did you expect to get if everything was OK, and what did you actually get? Could you post photos/scans of your result schedules?
  

OK Mr "I've done all this electrical work without any help".........if that's how you want it, that's how you'll get it.


Taken from all the drivel you were spouting, here is your question:-

jim2490 said:

.....my question is this - Do I need to run a separate continuous earth cable from the stopcock to the main board multipoint earth block as well as what is already in place as discribed???


This is one to give a little thought to, take your time and phone a friend if need be as is could well be one earth connection too far

Regards,
Jim.

Click to expand...

And here, after giving it a little thought , is your 'no-bulls**t' answer:-

NO, the stopcock does not need to be earthed.


Do you have another question???