Part P notification from April 2013

ericmark · 14 Mar 2013

I think your clutching at straws and you may as well just say I'm not paying the LABC it my house I'll do what I like.

The fuse box was a type tested distribution unit so it is a consumer unit.

530.3.4 For an installation with a 230 V single-phase supply rated up to 100A that is under the control of ordinary persons. Switchgear and controlgear assemblies shall either comply with BS EN 60439-3 and Regulation 432.1 or be a consumer unit incorporating components and protective devices specified by the manufacturer complying with BS EN 60439-3, including the conditional short-circuit test described in Annex ZA of BS EN 60439-3.

Since we under Part P have to follow BS7671 an ordinary person has to use a consumer unit. OK I suppose as skilled or competent one could use another type of distribution unit but before you sold the house it would have to be replaced and should anyone be injured you would have a hard job convincing a court what you did was safe. Clearly it would not have been safe if some one was injured.

I am sure we can find loop holes but I think to have work on consumer units inspected or completed by some one who knows what they are doing makes sense.

SimonH2 · 14 Mar 2013

ericmark said:
I think your clutching at straws and you may as well just say I'm not paying the LABC it my house I'll do what I like.

No, I work within the rules - I was wondering if they'd left a big hole that wasn't intended.

The fuse box was a type tested distribution unit so it is a consumer unit.

That's OK then. I'd never heard of them being called consumer units - only fuse boards. Consumer unit was only a term I'd ever heard in relation to 'modern' boards with MCBs.
That's why I asked the question since what everyone calls something can often be different to it's official name - c.f. the typical member of the public talks about "low voltage" while it's officially called "extra low voltage".

Pensdown · 15 Mar 2013

dingodeano said:
I personally think that there should be one certification body and that should issue licences to electricians based on their ability

There is already such a body. They are called the JIB. They grade all registered electricians based on their training, formal qualifications and sometimes industry assessment. It's not a perfect system but it's better than most other trades.

flameport · 16 Mar 2013

Pens said:
There is already such a body. They are called the JIB. They grade all registered electricians based on their training, formal qualifications and sometimes industry assessment.

Actually, what happens is that they demand that you have a certain worthless NVQ, otherwise you get a card with 'trainee' or some other nonsense on it.
Qualifications, training and experience count for nothing.

Not forgetting the multiple guess H&S exam which is so pathetically simple it could be completed by anyone of moderate intelligence with no prior instruction, training or anything else.

SaladFingers · 16 Mar 2013

flameport said:
Pens said:

There is already such a body. They are called the JIB. They grade all registered electricians based on their training, formal qualifications and sometimes industry assessment.

Click to expand...

Actually, what happens is that they demand that you have a certain worthless NVQ

NVQ = Not Very Qualified

securespark · 16 Mar 2013

I've worked in all areas of the business for nearly 30 years and never got whiff of anything remotely JIB flavoured.

Pensdown · 17 Mar 2013

flameport said:
Pens said:

There is already such a body. They are called the JIB. They grade all registered electricians based on their training, formal qualifications and sometimes industry assessment.

Click to expand...

Actually, what happens is that they demand that you have a certain worthless NVQ, otherwise you get a card with 'trainee' or some other nonsense on it.
Qualifications, training and experience count for nothing.

Not forgetting the multiple guess H&S exam which is so pathetically simple it could be completed by anyone of moderate intelligence with no prior instruction, training or anything else.

I agree a while ago it was a lot easier to get a grading card though industry assessment based on training and experience. However, the system was really badly abused so now to get an electricians grading card it's either as a formal apprentice or self trained with NVQ level 3 - not the end of the world for those that want it. The bar has to be set somewhere.

Re the CSCS health & safety card, what's wrong with having a minimum standard of H&S to go on a construction site. Although most literate people find it easy many others fail. Would you want someone who failed on one of your sites?

sparkybird · 18 Mar 2013

So does this mean that I don't have to notify any circuit alteration work in a kitchen then? Thus saving me £3.60 each time??

SimonH2 · 18 Mar 2013

Hadn't thought of that, but no - I don't think you'll be needing to notify anything but the 3 types of work listed.

sparkybird · 19 Mar 2013

You can bet NICIEC ain't going to tell me that - they'll be missing out on ££££££'s

EFLImpudence · 19 Mar 2013

Not only from you but ALL the kitchen fitters and plumbers (apart from electric showers) which, I thought, was the reason for the rules in the first place.

acmedone · 24 Mar 2013

SimonH2 said:
Someone (not too technical) could well take the attitude that "it works" and it doesn't trip the MCB, so it must be OK - after all, if it's within the current that the MCB will pass (at least for long enough to have a shower), then it must be within the capacity of the cable (else the protection isn't matched to the cable)

Someone technical could make the decision "it works" too...

OK, so if a 7kW shower is replaced with an 8kW shower without a cable upgrade, the I2R heating on the cable goes up 30%. But cables have a design maximum temperature for continuous duty and the specified fuse is intended to prevent the cable from reaching this. So what problem is the short cycle of a shower actually going to cause?

EFLImpudence · 24 Mar 2013

acmedone said:
OK, so if a 7kW shower is replaced with an 8kW shower without a cable upgrade, the I2R heating on the cable goes up 30%. But cables have a design maximum temperature for continuous duty and the specified fuse is intended to prevent the cable from reaching this. So what problem is the short cycle of a shower actually going to cause?

Your example is not too good as there are no (usual) cables which could cope with 7kW but not 8kW.
Would you use the same argument if replaced with 10kW where it might damage an mcb as well?

It either complies (with the regulations we have to follow) or it does not.

An installer could mark something as a departure and argue the case but I am not sure that 'time' would be accepted as a good reason if there were nothing to control the time
After all, someone could, for whatever reason, have the shower on for far longer.

acmedone · 24 Mar 2013

EFLImpudence said:
acmedone said:

OK, so if a 7kW shower is replaced with an 8kW shower without a cable upgrade, the I2R heating on the cable goes up 30%. But cables have a design maximum temperature for continuous duty and the specified fuse is intended to prevent the cable from reaching this. So what problem is the short cycle of a shower actually going to cause?

Click to expand...

Your example is not too good as there are no (usual) cables which could cope with 7kW but not 8kW.
Would you use the same argument if replaced with 10kW where it might damage an mcb as well?

It depends on what form that damage takes. I suggest an MCB that locks closed by being operated somewhere between its rated and actual trip point is in chocolate teapot territory. Damage caused by arcing in a trip is a different issue.

It either complies (with the regulations we have to follow) or it does not.

The primary purpose of the regulations is to ensure that safety is maintained. Tripping due to under capacity is usually nothing more than an inconvenience. (Though I agree that putting 40A on a 30A circuit is bad judgement. I bet there are plenty of houses with 40A MCBs on 6mm cables, mind.)

An installer could mark something as a departure and argue the case but I am not sure that 'time' would be accepted as a good reason if there were nothing to control the time
After all, someone could, for whatever reason, have the shower on for far longer.

They could... They could be cooking a meal and have and electric heater or two on too. It's not difficult to find enough stuff around the house that if used at once would exceed the supply fuse.

EFLImpudence · 24 Mar 2013

acmedone said:
EFLImpudence said:

It either complies (with the regulations we have to follow) or it does not.

Click to expand...

The primary purpose of the regulations is to ensure that safety is maintained.

But you are saying that unsafe installations are alright if used only for a short time.

Tripping due to under capacity is usually nothing more than an inconvenience. (Though I agree that putting 40A on a 30A circuit is bad judgement.

If done on purpose it would not be bad judgement but irresponsible and not compliant.

I bet there are plenty of houses with 40A MCBs on 6mm cables, mind.)

Nothing wrong with that (installation method allowing).

They could... They could be cooking a meal and have and electric heater or two on too. It's not difficult to find enough stuff around the house that if used at once would exceed the supply fuse.

I assume you are talking socket circuit and that 'should' not happen but would result in a trip, the cable would not be damaged.

Installing a single load circuit which may do this plus overheat the cable is a different matter.

I am not quite sure what the purpose of your argument is.

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Part P notification from April 2013

SaladFingers

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