Democracy

S

Sombrero

Democracy, in it's current guise, has runs it's course hasn't it?


After all, we used to vote basically left ot right, red or blue, and in the middle if you were fed up.

And these votes pretty much related to how much money you had, so broadly speaking, your class.

So now we have 7 classes, and a million different nationalities living here, most of them with a different and more importantly, religion based agenda, do we need to wake up?

I don't know the answer, and I'm not clever enough to define new political directions, but isn't it time we made moves to remove religion from the democratic process?
God would want that wouldn't he?
 
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C of E say yes.

Church of the Latter Day Saints says no.

Anglicans say maybe.
 
The only religion officially involved with politics in the UK is the Christian Church of England. Whilst the Queen is nominally the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, she appoints archbishops, bishops and deans of cathedrals on the advice of the Prime Minister.

Which is an interesting little detail when you consider that the two archbishops and 24 senior bishops sit in the House of Lords as the Lords Spiritual. That in itself has to bring into question the validity of the House of Lords as means to provide some form of checks and balances to what the House of Commons get up to (although in reality the Lords Spiritual only make up about 3% of lords in the house).

It also interesting when you then get pieces like this:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/290460/David-Cameron-It-s-time-that-we-revived-Christian-values

So we have the PM encouraging us to adopt the values of a church of which he influences who should lead it. Convenient.

Should we remove the C of E from the political sphere? Well the media certainly seems to like to bang on about how the UK has become a secular place, so let's look at some numbers from the last two census (2001 & 2011):

2001
Christian 71.1%
Islam 3.1%
Hindhu 1.1%
Sikhism 0.7%
Judaism 0.5%
Buddhism 0.3%
No religion or not stated 22.3%

2011
Christian 59.4%
Islam 5.0%
Hindhu 1.5%
Sikhism 0.8%
Judaism 0.5%
Buddhism 0.8%
No religion or not stated 31.9%

So sure, there has been a significant reduction of Christianity but that's hardly a purely secular demographic. However we need to bear in mind that the 59.4% is not solely C of E Christians, there's a hefty proportion of Catholics, other Anglicans and all the other smaller denominations (that's a long list) - each of which have their own philosophies that vary from one another to a greater or lesser extent. On that basis there certainly does seem to be a case to remove any involvement of the C of E in politics as they no longer represent a majority of the population.

University College London published an summary paper on reforming the House of Lords and specifically the Bishops role within it back in 1999 that tackles some of the challenges around doing it and possible ways to go about it. It's an interesting if somewhat dry read and also covers briefly the history of how we came to this position in the first place:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/spp/publications/unit-publications/41.pdf

So onto this question:
I don't know the answer, and I'm not clever enough to define new political directions, but isn't it time we made moves to remove religion from the democratic process?

That is actually an impossible thing to achieve. The majority of people (voters) in the UK have a religion and the majority of people who stand for election have a religion - so democracy being what it is religion will influence the process and arguably rightly so as a democratic government is meant to be representative of the population it governs. There is however a very good argument for removing the C of E influence in politics as its popularity is in decline.

At the end of the day, democracy is never going to be perfect, it was never intended to be - the idea is just to achieve governance that represents the views of most of the people most of the time. I'll take that over some of the possible alternatives like a totalitarian / dictatorial state (think Stalinist Soviet Union, Hitler's Germany or more recently Pol Pot's Cambodia) or an anarchy / no government (Western Sahara, Somalia anyone?).
 
The church and The State should be totally separate!

What worries me most about America is that an atheist could never make it to the top job. I'm not sure GB is very different TBH but we stand a better chance, being secullar allegedly, that's if it doesn't become a Muslim state first.

Democracy doesn't work; it's just the best of a bad lot...
 
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So if Islam is just 5% and cause 95% of the grief - better sort it now than later eh?
 
Sure, only a hermit could have missed the media and political opportunist circus since the murder of Lee Rigby.

Has there been a massive rash of murders though? The way you phrase that, it seems you think the streets have turned into rivers of blood.

There appear to have only been 3 since, one being motivated by robbery, another by domestic violence and the last currently unknown.

http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports/murders-fatal-violence-uk.html

Apparently 77 murders reported in the UK so far in 2013 which as we are now 5 months in is looking like a lower trend than recent years.

Hence why I asked joe-90 to clarify his point, which he really didn't do.
 
Sure, only a hermit could have missed the media and political opportunist circus since the murder of Lee Rigby.

Has there been a massive rash of murders though? The way you phrase that, it seems you think the streets have turned into rivers of blood.

Give it time.

Interesting that both the BNP and the EDL are anti-muslim organisations. Why?

Why aren't there a similar number of anti-Jewish, anti-Chinese, anti-Irish or even anti-Polish organisations?

I think we all know the real reasons.
 
Just some stats
Loathsome as the white extreme Right is, however, there is clearly no comparison. No one in Britain has been killed by the EDL; 53 people have been killed by Islamist terrorists. White racists, unlike their Islamist equivalents, do not control key religious institutions or have a significant presence in British universities.

Over the past decade, half a dozen or so white British Right-wingers have been convicted of possessing explosives and other weapons. But all were loners not acting in concert with any group.

In contrast, there have, over the same period, been 150 convictions for Islamist-related terrorism in the UK, many relating to serious, carefully organised, often multinational plots against specific targets involving substantial numbers of people.
From the article.
 
Sure, only a hermit could have missed the media and political opportunist circus since the murder of Lee Rigby.

Has there been a massive rash of murders though? The way you phrase that, it seems you think the streets have turned into rivers of blood.

Give it time.

Interesting that both the BNP and the EDL are anti-muslim organisations. Why?

Why aren't there a similar number of anti-Jewish, anti-Chinese, anti-Irish or even anti-Polish organisations?

I think we all know the real reasons.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/policies/immigration
The BNP's policy is to put a complete stop to immigration regardless of race or religion. I can't find anything in their policies about religion at all.

http://englishdefenceleague.org/home/about-us
The EDL is not anti-muslim per se, their line is purportedly to encourage an open dialogue to promote reform of the religion and loosen the perceived grip of the more radical arms of Islam on British Muslims.
 
Sure, only a hermit could have missed the media and political opportunist circus since the murder of Lee Rigby.

Has there been a massive rash of murders though? The way you phrase that, it seems you think the streets have turned into rivers of blood.

Give it time.

Interesting that both the BNP and the EDL are anti-muslim organisations. Why?

Why aren't there a similar number of anti-Jewish, anti-Chinese, anti-Irish or even anti-Polish organisations?

I think we all know the real reasons.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/policies/immigration
The BNP's policy is to put a complete stop to immigration regardless of race or religion. I can't find anything in their policies about religion at all.

http://englishdefenceleague.org/home/about-us
The EDL is not anti-muslim per se, their line is purportedly to encourage an open dialogue to promote reform of the religion and loosen the perceived grip of the more radical arms of Islam on British Muslims.

Well I've had a brief look at both of your links; I'm afraid I haven't time to examine them in depth. The first thing that crossed my mind is that both sites tried to sound quite reasonable in their policies - no obvious ranting - so how true these are when you consider how the media see them, I don't know.

The BNP link finishes with a statement with which I take issue:

"Only the British National Party has the reasonable, sensible, fair and just immigration policy which will guarantee that Britain remains British."

Perhaps they are not aware of UKIP.

The EDL link seems to concentrate on muslims to the complete exclusion of any other ethnic or religious group, which is exactly the point I made earlier.
 
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