Permaroof Water-based Adhesive Problem. Anyone else?

AlphaTeamBuilder · 27 Aug 2013

Hi

Does anybody else use Permaroof's own brand water based adhesive for adhering EPDM membranes? If so, have you had any problems with the membrane bubbling up recently?

Im only asking because, just recently (within the last 6 months or so), I have had a few call backs to jobs due to bubbles appearing. I install to correct installation specification and constraints but am experiencing aesthetic issues which i want to get sorted asap. My first ever roof was done with permaroof glue and it still looks great to this day, flat and smooth with no bubbles at all.

Im not sure what the problem is here and just wondered if anybody else has experienced the same issues.

tony1851 · 27 Aug 2013

Are the decks ply or OSB? One EPDM roofer I know of will not do it on OSB. Presumably because there are small hollows and surface irregularities on OSB that you may get small voids of trapped air?
Otherwise don't know.

AlphaTeamBuilder · 27 Aug 2013

tony1851 said:
Are the decks ply or OSB? One EPDM roofer I know of will not do it on OSB. Presumably because there are small hollows and surface irregularities on OSB that you may get small voids of trapped air?
Otherwise don't know.

when doing the deck ourselves we install a tongue and groove OSB3 board as per manufactuers guidelines.

I understand what he says about the small hollows but if you apply the correct amount of glue then these are filled. My first roof was ply - no problems, my second roof was OSB3- no problems. Only issues are recent which made me wonder if the glue was at fault.

cotswoldbuilders · 28 Aug 2013

We use osb 3 with no problems, t&g all sides, so you have a perfectly flat base, unlike ply where joins can vary in height.
We use Firestone glues with no problems, and find that osb takes the glue better than ply.
The rubber should pull down tight as its curing.

Check the glues are branded as some companies are substituting with cheaper glues.

paul_v · 28 Aug 2013

we did our gargage with EPDM using permaroof glue back in may and have been having the same problems with bubbling in the hot weather.

We used OSB3 but thought it was due to when we fitted it the sun went in mid afternoon so wasnt doing it in the best condtions.

Glad its not just us then.

AlphaTeamBuilder · 28 Aug 2013

pvms said:
we did our gargage with EPDM using permaroof glue back in may and have been having the same problems with bubbling in the hot weather.

We used OSB3 but thought it was due to when we fitted it the sun went in mid afternoon so wasnt doing it in the best condtions.

Glad its not just us then.

Likewise.

We are finding the roof looks great when we've finished but a few weeks later its started to bubble up. I have been using a wet mating method but I think I might have to go back to coating both sides with the water based using fire stones own brand just to be doubly sure. The bubbles do seem to disappear with time but it doesn't look good and I'd rather not be telling customers that's its a waiting game.

zzaky · 29 Aug 2013

Hi everybody, I'm brand new on here so i can reply to this thread, iv gotten alot of usefull info off this site thanks

I'm fitting a new Epdm roof from permaroof on saturday, i'm thinking otherwise now if people are having problems with bubbling???
Should i give there customer service a ring to clarify things with there adhesive glue??

AlphaTeamBuilder · 29 Aug 2013

zzaky said:
Hi everybody, I'm brand new on here so i can reply to this thread, iv gotten alot of usefull info off this site thanks

I'm fitting a new Epdm roof from permaroof on saturday, i'm thinking otherwise now if people are having problems with bubbling???
Should i give there customer service a ring to clarify things with there adhesive glue??

I'm currently in the process of getting them to test the Permaroof glue against firestones. If you are unsure then go with Firestone glue. It's been alright up until recently so it might have been a dodgy batch. In any case make sure you coat both surfaces (deck and rubber) before mating them together. That way you'll be super certain that it'll stick 100%.

zzaky · 30 Aug 2013

AlphaTeamBuilder said:
I'm currently in the process of getting them to test the Permaroof glue against firestones. If you are unsure then go with Firestone glue. It's been alright up until recently so it might have been a dodgy batch. In any case make sure you coat both surfaces (deck and rubber) before mating them together. That way you'll be super certain that it'll stick 100%.

Think il give them a ring and see what they say 1st
And go with your thoughts on adhering both sides to maximise bonding

AlphaTeamBuilder iv posted a new thread about warm flat roofs could you check it out n give me your thoughts mate

Much apreciate it

ZZ

cotswoldbuilders · 30 Aug 2013

zzaky said:
AlphaTeamBuilder said:

I'm currently in the process of getting them to test the Permaroof glue against firestones. If you are unsure then go with Firestone glue. It's been alright up until recently so it might have been a dodgy batch. In any case make sure you coat both surfaces (deck and rubber) before mating them together. That way you'll be super certain that it'll stick 100%.

Click to expand...

Think il give them a ring and see what they say 1st
And go with your thoughts on adhering both sides to maximise bonding

ZZ

When using water based adhesive, you only coat the deck or the rubber, not both.
Sounds more like your putting to much glue on, only time you coat board and rubber is with contact adhesive, and if your having problems with bubbling on the water based forget double contacting.
Weathers got nothing to do with the bubbling, if its to hot the glue will pull the rubber down quick, so if you have bubbles then you need to pull the rubber back up quick, once it grabs your stuck.
Make sure the rubber has been laid out to relax, ( especially if its tight packed ) apply even coat of water base to the field area, leaving 50mm perimeter,roll out and repeat other side.
If the roof fails and you have a core test done and you haven't used the appropriate glues, the warranty wouldn't stand.

AlphaTeamBuilder · 1 Sep 2013

cotswoldbuilders said:
zzaky said:

AlphaTeamBuilder said:

I'm currently in the process of getting them to test the Permaroof glue against firestones. If you are unsure then go with Firestone glue. It's been alright up until recently so it might have been a dodgy batch. In any case make sure you coat both surfaces (deck and rubber) before mating them together. That way you'll be super certain that it'll stick 100%.

Click to expand...

Think il give them a ring and see what they say 1st
And go with your thoughts on adhering both sides to maximise bonding

ZZ

Click to expand...

When using water based adhesive, you only coat the deck or the rubber, not both.
Sounds more like your putting to much glue on, only time you coat board and rubber is with contact adhesive, and if your having problems with bubbling on the water based forget double contacting.
Weathers got nothing to do with the bubbling, if its to hot the glue will pull the rubber down quick, so if you have bubbles then you need to pull the rubber back up quick, once it grabs your stuck.
Make sure the rubber has been laid out to relax, ( especially if its tight packed ) apply even coat of water base to the field area, leaving 50mm perimeter,roll out and repeat other side.
If the roof fails and you have a core test done and you haven't used the appropriate glues, the warranty wouldn't stand.

Single coating the deck is what I was taught at the Permaroof course and it's what is described on the Permaroof website (fully adhered installation guide) http://www.online-buildingproducts.co.uk/g/8003/installation-guides.html. So you are absolutely correct. However, single coating with PERMAROOF glue is what seems to be causing me problems.

We always allow the rubber to settle and apply glue as per recommended coverage (after mixing it of course).

However, if you read the Firestone Water Based installation guide (http://www.firestonebpe.com/sites/default/files/media/tis_epdm_modular_water_based_bonding_adhesive.pdf&#8206

it seems to suggest coating both sides and allowing to flash off/clear out (as per the solvent contact adhesive) and then rolling the rubber to allow adhesion. It does specify that if using the wet mating method (one side only) then it should only be attempted indoors! Who sticks a roof down indoors, I certainly dont?

Dave350z · 5 Sep 2013

AlphaTeamBuilder said:
Hi

Does anybody else use Permaroof's own brand water based adhesive for adhering EPDM membranes? If so, have you had any problems with the membrane bubbling up recently?

Im only asking because, just recently (within the last 6 months or so), I have had a few call backs to jobs due to bubbles appearing. I install to correct installation specification and constraints but am experiencing aesthetic issues which i want to get sorted asap. My first ever roof was done with permaroof glue and it still looks great to this day, flat and smooth with no bubbles at all.

Im not sure what the problem is here and just wondered if anybody else has experienced the same issues.

Hi mate, I actually worked for Permaroof for 2 years, so I have done my fair share of Roofs in the past.

The reason the EPDM is bubbling up is because you need to make sure that;

A - The Glue (both WBA and Contact) should be applied in nice thin and even coats

B - Let the glue tack-off. The WBA will go a blue colour, then clear as it tacks-off. as it starts to go clear, roll your EPDM out using a stiff broom to get the air out from under the membrane.

Permaroof Glue is manufactured by a reputable adhesive company, the only thing I would stay clear of is the Primer for the Seam Tape/FormFlash as its not great. Stick to Firestone branded.

I hope this helps buddy.

PS - Ignore what Firestone website suggests, they are forever changing installation methods.

WBA should ALWAYS be applied to the OSB ONLY!

Contact adhesive is a 2 side application, hence the fact its a contact adhesive. Again, very thin coats otherwise it will bubble!

Another trick as well, if you get factory creases in the rubber, which can be ugly, use contact adhesive to iron it out and pin it down the to decking.

AlphaTeamBuilder · 5 Sep 2013

Thank you for your explanation. It seems the recommended coverage rates in the Firestone manual are being very generous. Every time I go to check on something it has changed yet again. Makes you wonder why they do it?

I've checked with Permaroof. Their glue is made by Abrabond who have had the glue tested against the branded gear. It compares very well in all aspects so I guess I should make a point of saying it definitely isn't their glue but more user error.

Anyway, I know what you mean when you say it goes clear/blue so if that's what we are looking for then that's what we'll do. Apply to just the timber deck. Allow to flash off then roll rubber. The bubbles that have been present do tend to disappear over time but obviously I want happy customers from the outset.

Dave350z · 6 Sep 2013

AlphaTeamBuilder said:
Thank you for your explanation. It seems the recommended coverage rates in the Firestone manual are being very generous. Every time I go to check on something it has changed yet again. Makes you wonder why they do it?

I've checked with Permaroof. Their glue is made by Abrabond who have had the glue tested against the branded gear. It compares very well in all aspects so I guess I should make a point of saying it definitely isn't their glue but more user error.

Anyway, I know what you mean when you say it goes clear/blue so if that's what we are looking for then that's what we'll do. Apply to just the timber deck. Allow to flash off then roll rubber. The bubbles that have been present do tend to disappear over time but obviously I want happy customers from the outset.

It can be difficult to explain to customers that bubbles can occur, and typically they do disperse over time - You get that look from them as if they are thinking "Is this guy having me on" But you just need to explain that it does happen.

Normally the majority of Bubble's is where the Contact Adhesive is applied. Just follow the steps above and you will be fine.

And yes, Abrabond are the manufacturers - I really do not rate the Primer though, that will give you problems I promise, stick to Firestone.

Firestone are trying to stop the installation of their EPDM with other Glues anyway, and if you get that 20 year warranty from Permaroof its worthless when using their own Glue. If the EPDM did fail, they would blame it on the Adhesive used.

Obviously there is a price difference between Firestone & Permaroof glue, but the Firestone stuff is better by far. The contact adhesive is much easier to handle anyway.

AlphaTeamBuilder · 6 Sep 2013

Thanks dave.

Oh wow. They kept that bit quiet. Well I want to do things properly and if that's a get out clause then id rather pay the extra money and get all Firestone gear. That covers me in any event and at least I can reassure the customer ithey are getting a fully 100% Firestone install. I've used both of their contact adhesives. Firestone is a lot better to use. It doesn't seem to globulate as much.

I've told customers in the past to expect a few bubbles but not to worry because they will dissipate, and like you say, they give you this look of "are you having me on".

I've just done a course on grp roofing which seems to have quite a few benefits over Epdm. Especially with awkward roofs that are weird shapes. Have you had any experience with grp or come up against any of its shortcomings.

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Permaroof Water-based Adhesive Problem. Anyone else?

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