Outside Wiring

And if you don't want people to be given information except via Q&A, can we look forward to you editing the Wiki pages out of existence?
....talking of which, you might at least consider putting all your excellent advice about how people can acquire the necessary "full and genuine understanding", and equipment, necessary for them to be competent to undertake any electrical work (including your extensive lists of reading material and recommended test equipment) into the Wiki and directing people to it, rather than pasting it into forum posts so frequently? I'm sure this has been suggested before, but you don't seem to have acted upon it yet.

Kind Regards, John

To be fair, BAS did write this, and I have to say, it was well written.

Introduction
Please note that the reason for advising you about Part P and the notification requirements in the Building Regulations is not to hide behind the law as an excuse for not giving advice. The
concern of this site is safety and the giving of good advice, and part of the latter requires telling you about the law because ignorance of it is no excuse, as they say. There has never been anybody prosecuted for not notifying, the concerns are:
• Not having the right documentation when coming to sell your house. Buyers and their solicitors are getting more savvy, and if you've been through even one sale you'll know that a buyer will always be looking for reasons to get the seller to drop the price. No completion certificate for the electrics in the new kitchen or bathroom etc would be a jolly good reason.

• Doing electrical work as part of a larger project, e.g. an extension or loft conversion. Even now, several years after the introduction of Part P we still see people arriving here with tales of woe about having done the wiring for an extension themselves and now Building Control won't give them a completion certificate.

If as a fully informed decision you decide to ignore the law, then that's up to you - it's not the job of this site to enforce the law.

But neither is it to tell you how to do things which could have implications for you without making sure that you are aware of the law.

DIY Electrical work and the law

On January 1st 2005 legislation came into effect which brought electrical work in dwellings under the Building Regulations, and made it a controlled service. This amendment to the Building Regulations, known as “Part P”, imposes safety requirements, and also classifies electrical installation work into two basic categories, notifiable and non-notifiable.

Essentially the distinction is between major work, or work in what are deemed high-risk areas such as kitchens, bathrooms and gardens, and minor work such as replacing switches or adding sockets to existing circuits. (NB to those with a knowledge of the IEE Wiring Regulations, the term “minor work” is used here in its generic sense rather than the meaning defined in the Wiring Regs.)

A very important and fundamental point to note is that DIY electrical work has not been outlawed. It has been brought within the remit of the Building Regulations and cannot be carried out as freely as it was before, and in many cases cannot be carried out without involving your local council, but you may still DIY.

Major work is classed as notifiable, i.e. it must be notified to your Local Authority's Building Control department (LABC). How this happens depends on who does it.

If the work is carried out by an electrician who is registered with one of the organisations who administer self-certification schemes, (sometimes referred to as “Competent Person” schemes) they carry out the work and report the details to their scheme organiser, who then notify the appropriate LABC that the work has taken place, and that it has been certified by the person who carried it out as being in compliance with the Building Regulations.

You may be familiar with this method of operation if you have ever had windows replaced by a FENSA member.
If the work is carried out by someone who is not registered with one of the schemes, be they an electrician or another type of tradesman (e.g. kitchen fitter) who has chosen not to register, or a DIYer, then it must be notified to LABC in advance in the same way that any building work which requires their involvement is notified in advance. And just like when you are building an extension, or converting a loft, etc, there is a fee payable to LABC to cover their activities related to checking compliance with the Building Regulations. (But see “LABC Issues” below regarding this).

Another important point to note is that apart from a Building Inspector, nobody can certify someone else's work as being compliant with the Building Regulations. Unless arranged by or in cooperation with LABC, a 3rd party electrical inspection is of no value in terms of complying with the law.

The 2010 version of the legislation can be found here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2214/contents/made. It is worth making the effort to read and understand it, because there is a lot of misinformation on the Internet, some of it put out by organisations with a vested interest in pretending that DIY work is illegal, some of it by LABCs who have either misunderstood the legislation, or who are also attempting to mislead the public in order to reduce the amount of work notified to them by non-self-certifying people, some of it, surprisingly, by the DCLG themselves (The Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, predecessor to the Department for Communities and Local Government, were responsible for the legislation), and much of it on electrical advice and discussion fora like this one.

Please also note that the 2010 SI linked to above is almost, but not entirely, a complete replacement for all the previous SIs which made up the Building Regulations. For the scope of this Wiki article it does represent the consolidated position, but it may not do for other areas, e.g. Energy Performance certificates, so if those are of interest to you please carry out due diligence in following the SI trail to find out the requirements.
At the time of writing (January 2011), the following work was classed as not needing notification to LABC:
1. Work consisting of -

(a) replacing any fixed electrical equipment which does not include the provision of -
(i) any new fixed cabling, or
(ii) a consumer unit;

(b) replacing a damaged cable for a single circuit only;

(c) re-fixing or replacing enclosures of existing installation components, where the circuit
protective measures are unaffected;

(d) providing mechanical protection to an existing fixed installation, where the circuit
protective measures and current carrying capacity of conductors are unaffected by the
increased thermal insulation;

(e) installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding;

(f) in relation to an existing fixed building service, which is not a fixed internal or external
lighting system -
(i) replacing any part which is not a combustion appliance,
(ii) adding an output device, or
(iii) adding a control device,
where resting and adjustment of the work is not possible or would not affect the use by
the fixed building service of no more fuel and power than is reasonable in the
circumstances;

(g) providing a self-contained fixed building service, which is not a fixed internal or
external lighting system, where -
(i) it is not a combustion appliance,
(ii) any electrical work associated with its provision is exempt from the requirement to
give a building notice or to deposit full plans by virtue of regulation 9 or 12(6)(b),
(iii) testing and adjustment is not possible or would not affect its energy efficiency, and
(iv) in the case of a mechanical ventilation appliance, the appliance is not installed in a
room containing an open-flued combustion appliance whose combustion products
are discharged through a natural draught flue;

(h) replacing an external door (where the door together with its frame has not more than
50% of its internal face area glazed);

(i) in existing buildings other than dwellings, providing fixed internal lighting where no
more than 100m2 of the floor area of the building is to be served by the lighting;

(j) replacing -
(i) a sanitary convenience with one that uses no more water than the one it replaces,
(ii) a washbasin, sink or bidet,
(iii) a fixed bath,
(iv) a shower,
(v) a rainwater gutter, or
(vi) a rainwater downpipe,
where the work does not include any work to underground drainage, and includes no
work to the hot or cold water system or above ground drainage, which may prejudice the
health or safety of any person on completion of the work;

(k) in relation to an existing cold water supply -
(i) replacing any part,
(ii) adding an output device, or
(iii) adding a control device;

(l) providing a hot water storage system that has a storage vessel with a capacity not
exceeding 15 litres, where any electrical work associated with its provision is exempt
from the requirement to give a building notice or to deposit full plans by virtue of
regulation 9 or 12(6)(b);

(m) installation of thermal insulation in a roof space or loft space where -
(i) the work consists solely of the installation of such insulation, and
(ii) the work is not carried out in order to comply with any requirement of these
Regulations.

2. Work which -

(a) is not in a kitchen, or a special location;

(b) does not involve work on a special installation; and

(c) consists of -
(i) adding light fittings and switches to an existing circuit, or
(ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit.


3. Work on -

(a) telephone wiring or extra-low voltage wiring for the purposes of communications,
information technology, signalling, control and similar purposes, where the wiring is
not in a special location;

(b) equipment associated with the wiring referred to in sub-paragraph (a);

(c) pre-fabricated equipment sets and associated flexible leads with integral plug and
socket connections.


4. For the purposes of this Schedule -

"kitchen" means a room or part of a room which contains a sink and food preparation
facilities;

"self-contained" in relation to a fixed building service means consisting of a single appliance
and any associated controls which is neither connected to, nor forms part of, any other fixed
building service;

"special installation" means an electric floor or ceiling heating system, an outdoor lighting or
electric power installation, an electricity generator, or an extra-low voltage lighting system
which is not a pre-assembled lighting set bearing the CE marking referred to in regulation 9 of
the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 1994(a);

"special location" means a location within the limits of the relevant zones specified for a bath,
a shower, a swimming or paddling pool or a hot air sauna in the Wiring Regulations,
seventeenth edition, published by the Institution of Electrical Engineers and the British
Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2008(b).

Like any law, things can change, and you are urged to ensure that you make yourself familiar with the law as it stands now, not necessarily as it was when this document was written.

The starting point on the DCLG website for information related to Building Regulations is
http://www.communities.gov.uk/planningandbuilding/buildingregulations/
and a list of the relevant legislation can be found at
http://www.communities.gov.uk/planningandbuilding/buildingregulations/brlegislation/ .
It is in the nature of the Internet for sites to change, and it may well be that today, when you are reading this, the links above no longer work, and you will have to search for the pages you want.

Useful Information
On the Planning Portal website there are a number of “Approved Documents” ( http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/ ). These are not definitions of the law, nor do they tell you what you must, or must not, do. Instead they give guidance on ways in which the law can be satisfied. They do point out that you are not obliged to adopt any solution contained in them if you prefer to meet the requirements in another way, but that said they are useful as they contain common sense advice and often there is no good reason not to adopt the solutions they contain.
Approved Document P can be found here: http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/partp/ .
The DCLG website also has publications here: http://www.communities.gov.uk/planningandbuilding/buildingregulations/publications/ .

Technical Requirements
The technical requirements laid down by Part P are remarkably simple. They are:
P1 Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury.

It is worth noting however that they apply to all work, not just notifiable work, no matter who does it. So a DIYer adding a socket or a fused spur to a ring final circuit must work to the same technical standards as a registered electrician doing a complete rewire.

The biggest practical issue that arises is testing. To carry out testing of electrical circuits requires expertise and equipment, neither of which are likely to possessed by the average DIYer. So although Part P allows a DIYer to replace an entire circuit cable if it is damaged, without notification, it is arguable that he could not be sure that he had done it properly unless he carried out a series of tests on it, something he would probably be unable to do.

The IEE Wiring Regulations, aka BS 7671
Surprisingly, perhaps, Part P does not alter the status of the Wiring Regulations. They are still non-statutory, and there is still no legal requirement to adhere to them in domestic installations. This is a source of great discomfort to many electricians, and some of them will jump through hoops to try and prove that they are mandatory, but the fact remains that they are not.

HOWEVER, adherence to them is a very good way of ensuring that you meet the technical requirements of Part P, and you would need a very good reason, and a very good understanding of what you were doing, to decide to not adhere to them.

LABC Issues
As mentioned above, some LABCs are spreading misinformation, either by accident or design, about the status and acceptability of electrical work done by DIYers or other non-registered people.

These include:
1) Stating that such persons simply cannot carry out notifiable work, and that it must be done by registered electricians. The legislation referenced above makes it quite clear that this is not the case. LABCs are not allowed to refuse to process Building Notices submitted by non-registered people.

2) Stating that work carried out by a non-registered person must be inspected and tested by someone who is registered, or who they regard as qualified. Again, there is no mention of this requirement in the statutory instrument.
However they are allowed (indeed must) charge people if they choose to subcontract inspection & testing, and this might mean a charge per visit.

See http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/uksi_20100404_en_1 - particularly 7(3):

Where the local authority consider it necessary to engage and incur the costs of a consultant to provide specialist advice or services in relation to a particular aspect of building work those costs shall also be included in the determination referred to in paragraph (1).

As of April 1st 2010 para 1.26 of Approved Document P conflicts with actual legislation, so presumably is null and void, but is scheduled for replacement soon.

________________________________________
Scotland and Northern Ireland
The laws in Scotland and Northern Ireland are different, and if you are affected by them then you should make the effort to find out for yourself what the legislation says.

Do not rely on other people's interpretation of it, particularly if they have vested interests, such as being electricians, or running a registration scheme, or being a local authority after a quiet life.

I say this not because I have any evidence that such people or organisations are misleading the public, but because I have seen exactly this happen with English electricians and organisations with respect to Part P.
 
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To be fair, BAS did write this, and I have to say, it was well written.
Fair enough (although what it says about notification is obviously now obsolete (in England) and needs updating, with separate sections for England and Wales - in the same way I did in one of the other wiki pages) - and it illustrates that he knows how to put large blocks of text into a wiki (and then link to it as requuired), rather than repeatedly pasting them into posts.

Kind Regards, John
 
To make this simple for me could anyone tell me which colour from the pump i put in which hole (ie the blue and brown (Im ok with the green lol) and which hole i put the red and black from the incoming power supply ?
So you think that a winning strategy for dealing with lethal voltages outside, is that you should fiddle away with no understanding whatsoever, and to blindly follow instructions to put-this-wire-in-that-hole, without having a clue as to why?

I don't think so.

:rolleyes:
 
The person is asking how to do something. What's wrong with that?
It's what he is asking for which is wrong.

How are we supposed to know what we are allowed to ask - do you have a list of allowable questions and who put you in charge anyway?

To make this simple for me could anyone tell me which colour from the pump i put in which hole (ie the blue and brown (Im ok with the green lol) and which hole i put the red and black from the incoming power supply ?
That is so NOT the way to tackle electrical work, and I will never, ever, EVER agree that anything less than a full and genuine understanding of what you're doing is acceptable.

And isn't asking advice from others a good way of getting this knowledge? But perhaps you were born with ALL this knowledge so you never needed to ask anyone about anything?

It's the whole purpose of the forum isn't it?
The purpose of the forum is to enable people to carry out DIY by imparting and improving knowledge. The information I posted was enabling.

But you couldn't resist putting down the OP first - if you don't see that you are seriously unaware of how harsh many of your posts are. There are lots of people who call that bullying.

It's people like you who put off people asking anything at all.
And it's people like you who promote the idea that it's OK for someone to fiddle with electrics even though they don't know what they are doing.

Another fine example of you jumping to (negative) conclusions. How could you possibly get that from my comments?
 
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....talking of which, you might at least consider putting all your excellent advice about how people can acquire the necessary "full and genuine understanding", and equipment, necessary for them to be competent to undertake any electrical work (including your extensive lists of reading material and recommended test equipment) into the Wiki and directing people to it, rather than pasting it into forum posts so frequently? I'm sure this has been suggested before, but you don't seem to have acted upon it yet.
I advise people to learn about different things depending on what they are trying to do.
 
How are we supposed to know what we are allowed to ask - do you have a list of allowable questions and who put you in charge anyway?
OK - I'll rephrase it. He's asking to be given the wrong sort of answer.


And isn't asking advice from others a good way of getting this knowledge? But perhaps you were born with ALL this knowledge so you never needed to ask anyone about anything?
But he wasn't asking people to explain how it works. He was asking people to give him instructions which he could follow so that he could connect up his switch without learning anything about how it worked, how the circuit was wired, why the switch was connected that way, etc.


But you couldn't resist putting down the OP first
I didn't put him down any more than you are putting me down by telling me how wrong you think my whole approach is.


- if you don't see that you are seriously unaware of how harsh many of your posts are. There are lots of people who call that bullying.
There are lots of people who are wrong.


Another fine example of you jumping to (negative) conclusions. How could you possibly get that from my comments?
Possibly because you criticised me for telling the OP that he should not try to do electrical work on the basis of simply following instructions on where to put various wires without actually knowing why, and because you supported the idea of people asking for just those kind of instructions.
 
Sorry to buck the trend here, but as one who took the BAS option in the past I would like to add my tuppence worth.

I decided to install a loft light, simple enough job I foolishly thought. After unscrewing the ceiling rose cover, I took one look at the wiring and realised I was out of my depth. This left me with 3 options.

1. Get an electrician in
2. Go online and ask for a step by step guide
3. The BAS option, make the effort to gain knowledge and understanding

I chose option 3.

With the assistance of the Wiki, a bit of online help and advice from an electrician at work, I managed to safely install the light.

Needless to say this gave me a great deal of satisfaction, the most satisfying aspect was the fact that I actually understood what I was doing and why.

As an aside the electrician at work insisted that I provided him with a Mars bar and a can of coke for his advice.

:LOL:
 
....talking of which, you might at least consider putting all your excellent advice about how people can acquire the necessary "full and genuine understanding", and equipment, necessary for them to be competent to undertake any electrical work (including your extensive lists of reading material and recommended test equipment) into the Wiki and directing people to it, rather than pasting it into forum posts so frequently? I'm sure this has been suggested before, but you don't seem to have acted upon it yet.
I advise people to learn about different things depending on what they are trying to do.
Fair enough, but I know that you are more than skillful enough to enable you to construct wiki page(s) which are versatile in this respect and which indicated what things people should learn in what situations - after all, the advice you give within forum posts does not vary that much, and generally always has a common core. When necessary, you could always indicate in forum posts which bits of the wiki were appropriate for the OP in question.

Kind Regards, John
 
Sorry to buck the trend here, but as one who took the BAS option in the past I would like to add my tuppence worth. ... I decided to install a loft light, simple enough job I foolishly thought. After unscrewing the ceiling rose cover, I took one look at the wiring and realised I was out of my depth. This left me with 3 options. ... 3. The BAS option, make the effort to gain knowledge and understanding ... I chose option 3.
With the assistance of the Wiki, a bit of online help and advice from an electrician at work, I managed to safely install the light. ... Needless to say this gave me a great deal of satisfaction, the most satisfying aspect was the fact that I actually understood what I was doing and why.
That's great, and is obviously the ideal that we would all like to see happening. However, I wonder if we are necessarily talking about the same sort of situation. In situations (maybe like yours?) in which a person can be easily directed to a source of 'what they need to know and understand' in the wiki (and/or elsewhere), that's perfectly reasonable, and essentially just removes the need for responders to repeatedly type the same thing in posts. It is when people are presented with a long 'reading list' and advised to undertake an extensive period of study, starting from basics upwards, that I seriously doubt that any significant proportion of those asking simple questions here will take that advice

One has to understand that probably the majority of people who ask simple questions here have an 'acute' problem which needs a rapid solution (e.g. they've replaced a light switch or ceiling rose and now can't get their lights to work, or they've replaced a thermostat and can't get their heating to work) and, with the best will in the world, are not going to spend weeks, months or years studying and gaining knowledge before they rectify the problem. Also, such situations are often 'one-offs' for people who will very rarely, if ever, engage in electrical DIY in the future - again, I would suggest that they are unlikely to spend extended time and effort 'learning about electrical installations' so that they can mend their light switch.

One cannot argue in principle with the ideal situation which BAS would like to promote. The practical problem is that his approach will be seen to be 'intimidating' by many OPs. A substantial proportion of them are 'never seen again' after he intervenes, and one can but speculate (and worry) about what they then do about the electrical issue they were trying to get advice about. Ironically, therefore, his well-intentioned advice might well have an adverse effect on safety for at least some of them.

Kind Regards, John
 
John,

I agree totally with your views on the long reading list. A few wiki articles covering the basics would probably suffice. You seem more than capable of doing this.

Isn't the point that BAS is making though is not to jump in and plough on regardless without any understanding of what you are doing. As you rightly say a lot of posts are from people who have no understanding of what they are doing then turn to the forum when they suddenly realise that.

Would you take on a project of any sort without a bit of basic research?
 
John, I agree totally with your views on the long reading list. A few wiki articles covering the basics would probably suffice. You seem more than capable of doing this.
It's the 'long reading list' (and also lists of various bits of {mainly expensive} test equipment) which frequently get wheeled out which is the main issue. Wiki articles are all very well for details of specifics, but are not, IMO, a place to try to create 'textbooks' of underlying principles etc.
Isn't the point that BAS is making though is not to jump in and plough on regardless without any understanding of what you are doing. As you rightly say a lot of posts are from people who have no understanding of what they are doing then turn to the forum when they suddenly realise that. Would you take on a project of any sort without a bit of basic research?
No, I wouldn't. However, although BAS disagrees with me, I'm always saying that I think that a forum like this inevitably poses dilemmas. If, as is only too easy, one takes the view that anyone who needs to ask simple/basic questions in the forum is, by definition, lacking in the degree of understanding and competence necessary for them to be undertaking electrical work, then we really should not pretend that this is place where people can come to have questions answered - and, rather, should merely replace it with 'educational' wiki pages or whatever.

The worst dilemma, about which BAS and I again disagree, is what one should do about someone who is clearly hell-bent on doing something they don't understand adequately and are not competent to do, whether they are given (specific) 'advice/instructions or not. It is clearly safest for 'us' ('liability-wise') not to do anything to facilitate or 'encourage' the undertaking of that work, but we then leave the OP to muddle along, quite possibly dangerously, with no advice at all.

This ain't a straightforward or easy business!!

Kind Regards, John
 
As you rightly say a lot of posts are from people who have no understanding of what they are doing then turn to the forum when they suddenly realise that.

That is when they should turn to the forum for advice by way of asking questions.

I and others are sick and tired of BAS trotting out the same useless list.

Yes useless to someone who needs help now.
 
In situations (maybe like yours?) in which a person can be easily directed to a source of 'what they need to know and understand' in the wiki (and/or elsewhere), that's perfectly reasonable, and essentially just removes the need for responders to repeatedly type the same thing in posts. It is when people are presented with a long 'reading list' and advised to undertake an extensive period of study, starting from basics upwards, that I seriously doubt that any significant proportion of those asking simple questions here will take that advice
But you want reading lists transferred to the Wiki, and posts to contain a link to the appropriate Wiki page(s).

So no difference, with respect to your concern - people still get the same lists(s).


One has to understand that probably the majority of people who ask simple questions here have an 'acute' problem which needs a rapid solution (e.g. they've replaced a light switch or ceiling rose and now can't get their lights to work, or they've replaced a thermostat and can't get their heating to work) and, with the best will in the world, are not going to spend weeks, months or years studying and gaining knowledge before they rectify the problem.
Then they call an electrician. It really is that simple, and stark, a choice.


Also, such situations are often 'one-offs' for people who will very rarely, if ever, engage in electrical DIY in the future - again, I would suggest that they are unlikely to spend extended time and effort 'learning about electrical installations' so that they can mend their light switch.
They they don't do it - they call an electrician.


One cannot argue in principle with the ideal situation which BAS would like to promote. The practical problem is that his approach will be seen to be 'intimidating' by many OPs. A substantial proportion of them are 'never seen again' after he intervenes, and one can but speculate (and worry) about what they then do about the electrical issue they were trying to get advice about. Ironically, therefore, his well-intentioned advice might well have an adverse effect on safety for at least some of them.
Their fault, their failing, their responsibility.
 
It's the 'long reading list' (and also lists of various bits of {mainly expensive} test equipment) which frequently get wheeled out which is the main issue. Wiki articles are all very well for details of specifics, but are not, IMO, a place to try to create 'textbooks' of underlying principles etc.
So where do you suggest putting the lists?


I'm always saying that I think that a forum like this inevitably poses dilemmas.
And you're always wrong - there are no dilemmas.


The worst dilemma, about which BAS and I again disagree, is what one should do about someone who is clearly hell-bent on doing something they don't understand adequately and are not competent to do, whether they are given (specific) 'advice/instructions or not.
Advise them, as strongly as possible, not to do it.


It is clearly safest for 'us' ('liability-wise') not to do anything to facilitate or 'encourage' the undertaking of that work, but we then leave the OP to muddle along, quite possibly dangerously, with no advice at all.
Their fault, their failing, their responsibility.

And it's nothing to do with liability - it's simply what is the best advice.
 
That is when they should turn to the forum for advice by way of asking questions.
Indeed.

And the answers they get should be ones which lead to them becoming competent.


I and others are sick and tired of BAS trotting out the same useless list.
Feel free to go away so that you won't have to see it.


Yes useless to someone who needs help now.
Essential to someone who wants to do electrical work, because nothing less than competence is acceptable.

If their needs are too urgent for them to acquire the essential competence then they call an electrician, it really is that simple.
 

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