Gas, have the rules changed?

SimonH2 said:

Now - I work in IT. But I haven't always done so. But that's irrelevant anyway.

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It is not irrelevant, it demonstrates to people reading this thread, that you have absolutely no creditability about this issue what so ever.

The people who argue these points are always the same type, stuck in menial low level desk jobs, staring at a monitor for 8 hours a day, i know both of you like to think you are some kind of legal expert, but at the end of the day, neither of you are, i'm not either that is why i pay someone who is and take advice about such issues from them.

Slippy, show me the stature that says a doctor can not practice unless he/she holds a Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery.

Also, what is your profession Slippy, you are not an electrician/plumber/lawyer, that is for sure, what desk job is it?

You can always better yourself lads, it is never too late to get qualified and get a career in something, instead of being disappointed that regulated professions exists, that you are not apart of.

Look pal, you're a plumber and you're calling rank on everyone else on a legal issue?

You're trying to distract from the point.

You do not have any evidence to back up your claims., because they are wrong.

Until you produce something, you lose. End of story. Stop rambling and come up with the goods if you know best.

GavThePlumber said:

The people who argue these points are always the same type, stuck in menial low level desk jobs, staring at a monitor for 8 hours a day, i know both of you like to think you are some kind of legal expert, but at the end of the day, neither of you are, i'm not either that is why i pay someone who is and take advice about such issues from them.

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What's always the same is that in a discussion such as this, one party (who's in effect "losing") starts to distract from the point by making personal insults.

You've no idea what I do for a living and I'm not going to tell you, because it's not relevant. The only point of discussion in this thread I'm interested in, is the legal question of whether, as you state, you need to be ACS qualified to do anything with gas.

I've challenged you several times to provide some evidence to support your point, and you won't. If you really have paid for a legal opinion on this, then please, for the benefit of the community, share their findings with us here. I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong, the moment you do.

I'll not be holding my breath though.

GavThePlumber said:

Slippy, show me the stature that says a doctor can not practice unless he/she holds a Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery.

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That's really quite easy:-

The Medical Act 1983 Part 1 Section 1 empowers the GMC as the body responsible for regulating medicine.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/54/section/1

The Medical Act 1983 Part 1 Section 2 creates the provision which requires practitioners to be registered with the GMC
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/54/section/2

The Medical Act 1983 Part 2 Section 3 enables UK based qualifications as a requirement for registration
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/54/section/3

The Medical Act 1983 Part 2 Section 4 lists the institutions which can give out these qualifications.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/54/section/4


Your turn!

slippyr4 said:

...you're calling rank on everyone else on a legal issue?

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I have already said i take my advice from qualified professionals, as you are an armchair lawyer, this will seem alien to you, i know. You are no authority on the subject in anyway, you are very likely to hold no formal qualifications at all.

slippyr4 said:

You do not have any evidence to back up your claims., because they are wrong.

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Slippy, show me the stature that says a doctor can not practice unless he/she holds a Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery.
Answer this please.
You have already had the answer, to show competence, in any profession, means to hold a suitable qualification. Do you think a doctor can practice without the relevant qualifications, is that what you are suggesting?

slippyr4 said:

Until you produce something, you lose. End of story. Stop rambling and come up with the goods if you know best.

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Why don't you go pay a legal professional and get the answer that you don't want to hear, but it will be the answer i have already told you, because that is information i am relaying to you from a suitably qualified person.

Don't be mad that you are in a menial job.

GavThePlumber said:

You are no authority on the subject in anyway

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That fact that you're handy with a blow torch doesn't make you an authority on a legal issue.

GavThePlumber said:

Slippy, show me the stature that says a doctor can not practice unless he/she holds a Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery.
Answer this please.

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Yep, I did - to humour you- even though it's not really relevant here. I'm sure now you'll be showing me the equivalent for gas work. After all, I've asked you countless times.

You have already had the answer, to show competence, in any profession, means to hold a suitable qualification.

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We're talking about DIY gas work, not professional. I know that you need to be gas safe registered to trade in gas work.

GavThePlumber said:

Why don't you go pay a legal professional and get the answer that you don't want to hear, but it will be the answer i have already told you, because that is information i am relaying to you from a suitably qualified person.

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No, you haven't relayed any information at all - which is the problem. Come on, I'm bored of asking now - where's the statute that demands ACS?

Don't be mad that you are in a menial job.

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I'm not, but thanks for your concern. Nor do I see the need to insult you. I rise above it.

On what planet does a plumber get compared to an educated professional such as a lawyer or a doctor???? A gas fitter has nothing like the intelligence or education these people have so stop making such a ridiculous comparison!

The law, which any layman can read, does NOT define competence as holding an ACS ticket. You might think it does, but the more you insist despite being wrong, you just reinforce my first paragraph.

BTW gav, a menial job is only such if it is beneath your mental ablities, like if a lawyer was go to fit boilers for a living. Just because you don't fancy working a desk job doesn't mean it's beneath you.

Gav,

It's not very helpful to insult peoples career choices. I dare say there's a fair few people who look down on what you do.

As you've taken legal advice on this issue, perhaps the best way to move forward with this is for you to post their verbatim response here?

GavThePlumber said:

It is not irrelevant, it demonstrates to people reading this thread, that you have absolutely no creditability about this issue what so ever.

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It says no such thing. You have no idea what my skills or previous training or qualifications are - and I'm not telling you. It's besides the point.

The people who argue these points are always the same type, stuck in menial low level desk jobs

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Ever heard the expression, Assumption makes an ASS out of U and ME ? When you are sure proving that it's true since you've mad a big assumption and showing yourself up.


So, are you prepared to back up your statements yet ? You've been asked time and time again to show where in actual, written, English law it in any way states that an ACS ticket is required to demonstrate competence to comply with the gas safety regs.

So stop with the personal insults, stop with the distractions, stop with the "someone told me and I believe them because they're qualified". Just show the simple fact that you must presumably have - because if your expensive legal opinion told you that, they'll have included a reference to the legislation. If they didn't then "you've been 'ad mate"


As the saying goes, put up or shut up.

cajar said:

BTW gav, a menial job is only such if it is beneath your mental ablities, like if a lawyer was go to fit boilers for a living.

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No it doesn't, it means doing work requiring little skill, it is always people is menial jobs that want to debate the topic.

I am not sure what more i can really say, the regs state that;

No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas
storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.




Competence means qualified, doing an ACS is how you demonstrate this.

It really is as simple as that.

Yes, we all agree on the requirements to work as a gas fitter. This is about DIY.

So we're still waiting....

The HSE guidance just after what GavThePlumber quoted said:

82 Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must be
competent to do so (whether or not they are required to be a member of an
approved class of persons). Therefore, do-it-yourself gas engineers and those
performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required
competence. The level and range of competence should match the full extent of
work done, but needs only to be sufficient for and relevant to that work.

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So, the HSE's guidance on their interpretation of the statute doesn't say anything about needing ACS for DIY work. Rather the contrary!

In fact, they define their interpretation of competence too:-

The HSE guidance just after what GavThePlumber quoted said:

84 Competence is a combination of practical skill, training, knowledge and
experience to carry out the job in hand safely, and ensuring the installation is left in
a safe condition for use. Knowledge must be kept up-to-date with changes in the
law, technology and safe working practice

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Slightly annoyingly Gav didn't attribute the quote. For the avoidance of doubt, it came from the HSE's Approved Code of Practice which is their guidance on how to comply with the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998.

The guidance in questions relates to the following from the aforementioned regs:

(1)
No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas
storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.
(2)
The employer of any person carrying out such work for that employer,
every other employer and self-employed person who has control to any extent of
such work and every employer and self-employed person who has required such
work to be carried out at any place of work under his control shall ensure that
paragraph (1) above is complied with in relation to such work.

The ACOP has this to say about itself:

This Code has been approved by the Health and Safety Executive, with the consent
of the Secretary of State. It gives practical advice on how to comply with the law. If
you follow the advice you will be doing enough to comply with the law in respect of
those specific matters on which the Code gives advice. You may use alternative
methods to those set out in the Code in order to comply with the law.
However, the Code has a special legal status. If you are prosecuted for breach of
health and safety law, and it is proved that you did not follow the relevant provisions
of the Code, you will need to show that you have complied with the law in some
other way or a Court will find you at fault.

So the documents says walk with me and ye shall not walk in darkness. It also acknowleges that it is possible to carry out compliant work without following the guide but that the burden of proof is on the defendant.

Just got my certificate through from Gas Safe / Building Compliance. Part of it says " It is a legal requirement for anyone carrying out any gas work on your behalf to be Gas Safe Registered."

Just got my certificate through from Gas Safe / Building Compliance.

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Thing is some people have never heard of all the various certificates needed nowadays, for example my mother lives in a 17th century building and I know for a fact that apart from various guarantees etc she has no 'certificates'.
Unless the property passes out of the family or is used for a mortgage I don't suppose anyone will ask for one.