downstairs switch stops upstairs switch from working???

Two things I note.
1) Black wire in junction block.
2) Single wires in switch.
So it would seem wired power to switch and then from switch to light which is not the normal method.

Normally power goes to light and from light to switch.

I will admit once you lose the original wiring it's hard to trace wires is conduit it is a pain staking job. Sorry duty calls I'll try again latter.

Thanks for the input. I did notice the that the black cables are in the switches downstairs but not on the upstairs switch. mentioned it to the sparky and he said the upstairs ones are just straps??
 
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When did you notice the light upstairs only worked when the downstairs switch was off?
Was after you had replaced one or both?
 
When did you notice the light upstairs only worked when the downstairs switch was off?
Was after you had replaced one or both?

was after both where replaced. although the pair of black cables on the upstairs single where bunched together and not connected to the switch
 
Did they work after the first one was replaced then?
Do you have and electrical testing equipment? As you may need to figure out the configuration of the two way switching arrangement.
I assume because of the VIT cable, there is no earth/CPC?
 
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Did they work after the first one was replaced then?
Do you have and electrical testing equipment? As you may need to figure out the configuration of the two way switching arrangement.
I assume because of the VIT cable, there is no earth/CPC?

No there is no earth. I have a multimeter. Not sure I know how to use it that well :)
 
I replaced the downstairs one first but then did the upstairs one straight away so did not check after each was done.... with hindsight that would have been the clever thing to do :oops:
 
with hindsight that would have been the clever thing to do :oops:
With hindsight the wise thing to do, would have been to note down the conductors position on each switch and label them accordingly.
But unless you are Doctor Who, you cannot go back in time to address this.
So some testing is required, a little tricker without the earth CPC in place.
First test I would do, would be to test voltage between switch terminals and black conductors in terminal block. This could help determine whether these are neutrals or part of the live switching.
Multi set to AC voltage, it's a live test so be careful!
If you do get a reading of around 240V, see if you can determine which conductor is permanently live, when measuring using the grouped blacks, this will require operating the switch.
 
with hindsight that would have been the clever thing to do :oops:
With hindsight the wise thing to do, would have been to note down the conductors position on each switch and label them accordingly.
But unless you are Doctor Who, you cannot go back in time to address this.
So some testing is required, a little tricker without the earth CPC in place.
First test I would do, would be to test voltage between switch terminals and black conductors in terminal block. This could help determine whether these are neutrals or part of the live switching.
Multi set to AC voltage, it's a live test so be careful!
If you do get a reading of around 240V, see if you can determine which conductor is permanently live, when measuring using the grouped blacks, this will require operating the switch.

You sir are a star..... I will crack on with that first thing tomorrow.... I really appreciate it.
 
I thought I got a competent electrician yesterday but no joy?? I used check a trade to find him as well so not just a friend or anything.
:eek:

Membership of lists like Checkatrade is gained by paying Checkatrade some money.
There are no qualifications needed other than the ability to sign a cheque.
I know that they say they want to see qualifications, but money is all teh qualification needed, believe me. The roofer across the raod from me is on Checkatrade and he has no quals, not even a single GCSE, not even a budgerigar.
Better to get a recommendation from a friend and then check the potential electrician is a member of one of the CPS. (But still not an assurance of competence).

As pointed out, above. Your wiring is well past its "use by" date and needs attention before it fails on you.

You need to sort your priorities, most people do things like running new wires etc before they re-decorate.
 
I thought I got a competent electrician yesterday but no joy?? I used check a trade to find him as well so not just a friend or anything.
AS above I would not personally recommended an electrician from a so called rated my hammer trade site. They maybe some perfectly good electrician amongst their members, but more likely to be more very poor ones.
Check out these sites, input your district and there will be a list of the ones that are considered competent:
http://www.competentperson.co.uk/
http://www.electricsaferegister.co.uk/
http://www.electricalsafetyregister.com/

Also as has been mentioned in most replies, the cable you have on your lighting circuit is of an age that it will need to be replaced, when I come across this cable I condemn it, and request that the customer urgently attends to replacing it.
 
I would agree as to these pay to be listed schemes I have come to the conclusion people who join one of the rated people schemes are normally not that good and use the scheme to get custom which they would not get from normal person to person recommendation. So now it does reverse for me if they are member of a rating scheme I avoid using them.

As to the problem there are two ways to tattle it. One is find out how it was wired and correct it. The other is to ring out wires and wire it using a standard method.

two-way-school-boy.bmp
this image shows how two way systems were wired in school however to follow this with standard cables means you need to have junction blocks in the switch so it is not the normal method used.

two-way-real.bmp
this one shows the cables and it avoids having to have connectors in the switch. Also since there is a line wire to each switch years ago before we worried about interference it was common to borrow the line from an adjacent switch so only two wires used for stappers.

Alt-two-way-wiring.bmp
this method also means no joints or doubled up wires in the switch everything done in the ceiling rose.

They all work and I am sure there are more ways to do it. As an electrician I would likely not want to work on the set-up you have because it is so old disturbing it will likely introduce faults and any electrician working on it would need to put stickers on the consumer unit warning to use only class II equipment on lights as there is no earth. This lack of earth also makes testing harder likely would need a neutral from a socket to get a reference point and it is a lot of messing about.

Years ago when I was just out of my apprenticeship since I served my time in industry I had no idea as to how to wire two way switches other than what I was taught at school and I am sure in the 1970's there were many more the same as me. Since wired before 1960 it may have been a dilutee who wired it who had minimum of training required to help in the war effort so really it could use all sorts of wiring methods.

As an electrician I would want to re-wire as a hobbyist I would look on it as a challenge. There are today wireless switches which would likely be the quick way around the problem but they are not cheap however neither is an electricians time. Although I know wireless systems are made I have not used any so maybe some of the others can recommend one. Often they include dimming which is a pain if you want to use CFL or LED lighting. But considering your problems I would consider the idea of wireless can even have a key fob to turn lights on and off.

Wireless is more common than one first thinks I went to work on a chair lift and all switches screwed to the wall I expected to be hard wired but found two rechargeable lead acid and two PP9 little 9 volt batteries ran the whole system power only re-charged batteries and fault was a simple flat battery.
 
The age of the wiring makes me think there will be joint boxes everywhere.
 

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