EDF asking for a dead test certificate

HawkEye244 · 12 Oct 2014

EFLImpudence said:
HawkEye244 said:

I've had a friend of the sparky who fitted the fire/smoke to come out and do a test who apparently had the certification to do it. So he finishes the test which took him 15minutes. This is an electrical installation condition report form KEWTECH, 5 pages, page 1 is details, page 2 looks to be an inspection, page 3 a schedule and page 4, page 5 schedule of test results.

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No registration (what you call certification) is required to carry out EICRs.

It is not possible to do one in 15 minutes.
Surely it is obvious that it would take more than fifteen minutes to acquire all the results for five pages of documents.

So I've paid £100 for this report, and now have the feeling that I've been ripped off.

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That is a very good price for a proper report but a rip-off for a work of fiction.

I was actually under the assumption before he came round that he would notify building control, but he talked me out of that by saying it was not notifiable anyway,

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EICRs are not notifiable but then it is not really what you should have which is an Electrical Installation Certificate.

and that if they ever ask I am to give the report to them and that would provide assurance of work carried out. He did say it would cost more to send off, but that I could send the report off to BC to get building regulations.

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What does "get Building Regulations" mean? They are laws.

Is there any truth in this or have I been stitched up paying for a report that's worthless?

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It sounds like it.

I don't actually even no if he's NICEIC registered to do this,

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He does not have to be but then it is not what you required.

for all I know it's a report that anyone could have filled out and gives me no protection whatsoever?

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It is if they know what they are doing and do it.

How do I know he even did the test?

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FIFTEEN MINUTES.
THE test ???
Look at all the details on the EICR. Do you really think it would be possible?

OK so where do I go from here?

He seems to have filled it out but how would I know? Numbers everywhere, the schedule states each circuit, it's continuity, polarity etc etc etc.

So if this report as you say isn't notifiable BUT is not what I need, and I need a NICEIC approved contractor to verify the work to get the building certificate (which I thought I was getting anyway), what can I do about that now ?

Obviously in hindsight I would have notified BC before carrying out work but that's the benefit of hindsight. As JohnW2 says about the regularisation procedure, is that my only option now?

Obviously finding an NICEIC to verify work that is not their own is not an option now.

I'm quite happy about all the feedback so far by the way, I'm learning from the mistakes as I go along.

As far as the system goes, all switches/sockets seem to be fine, no tripped RCD's.

I suppose I'll have to find out the cost of getting building certificate after the fact, which is difficult without putting my foot in it

EFLImpudence · 12 Oct 2014

HawkEye244 said:
So if this report as you say isn't notifiable BUT is not what I need, and I need a NICEIC approved contractor to verify the work to get the building certificate (which I thought I was getting anyway), what can I do about that now ?

You do NOT need a NICEIC AC; you can only contact your Local Building Conrol and then it's up to them.

Obviously in hindsight I would have notified BC before carrying out work but that's the benefit of hindsight. As JohnW2 says about the regularisation procedure, is that my only option now?

Yes.

Obviously finding an NICEIC to verify work that is not their own is not an option now.

That applies to anyone and is the situation.
NICEIC is but one of a number of such schemes. They are nothing special.

I'm quite happy about all the feedback so far by the way, I'm learning from the mistakes as I go along.

That's life.

As far as the system goes, all switches/sockets seem to be fine, no tripped RCD's.

It probably IS fine.

I suppose I'll have to find out the cost of getting building certificate after the fact, which is difficult without putting my foot in it

I expect they will be used to it.

JohnW2 · 12 Oct 2014

HawkEye244 said:
Obviously in hindsight I would have notified BC before carrying out work but that's the benefit of hindsight. As JohnW2 says about the regularisation procedure, is that my only option now? ... Obviously finding an NICEIC to verify work that is not their own is not an option now.

One of the options which many would consider would probably be to do nothing.

I'm still not sure that we were certain that the work was notifiable but, assuming it was notifiable and has not been notified, you are right in saying that the only official option you would have would be to apply for (costly) 'regularisation' by LABC.

However, if you don't do that, in real terms I would think that the only real risk is that (assuming you were honest in answering the conveyancing questions - which you should be, since lying could get you into serious trouble) a prospective buyer of the property in the future may attempt to use the situation to negotiate a small price reduction. In similar situations, there is also often the consideration that your house insurers might attempt to use the situation to invalidate a fire claim. However, in your case, you have an EICR from someone who you believed was a credible and competent electrician (I presume his name and address appear on the EICR). That being the case, even though many/most of us here are sceptical (or worse) about this EICR, I think you could probably argue that you commissioned the EICR in good faith and that it reports that your installation is safe.

For your own peace of mind, it might well be worth having a proper EICR done by a proper electrician (who took an awful lot more than 15 minutes to do it!), to confirm that the installation really is safe.

Opinions about all that may (probably will!) vary!

Kind Regards, John

HawkEye244 · 12 Oct 2014

Yes his name, signature and company are all over the paperwork.

Thanks for putting me at ease, basically then either pay out loads of money for a compliance certificate or do nothing and provide the report if asked, if this removes liability (somewhat) from me then I'm reasonably happy but yes really I would like the compliance cert.

What really concerns me is if he hasn't actually bothered to test and just written numbers down then it's not confirmation the system is safe either. I want piece of mine he's actually done what I paid him to do.

I can't very well phone him and say I think you're a cowboy can I, and to have it tested or inspected again is going to cost me, by which point I may as well have paid towards the cost of this 'regularisation'.

Is it really such a great stretch to have an NICEIC approved contractor to inspect the job (boards are still liftable) and sign it off ? If so why

Grizzly · 12 Oct 2014

This is all very nice and everything, but I was really wanting to see where the whole `The Building Act 1984 isn't a law` debate was going to go.
I`m intrigued to know why the OP doesn't think that it is.

RF Lighting · 12 Oct 2014

HawkEye244 said:
Thanks for putting me at ease, basically then either pay out loads of money for a compliance certificate or do nothing and provide the report if asked, if this removes liability (somewhat) from me

It doesn't

then I'm reasonably happy but yes really I would like the compliance cert.

Well then you need to talk to your LABC

What really concerns me is if he hasn't actually bothered to test and just written numbers down then it's not confirmation the system is safe either. I want piece of mine he's actually done what I paid him to do.

If he really was there for 15 mins, then he has not done what you paid him for. The only way you'll know your installation is safe is to have it properly inspected and tested.

I can't very well phone him and say I think you're a cowboy can I,

Why not?

and to have it tested or inspected again is going to cost me, by which point I may as well have paid towards the cost of this 'regularisation'.

Lesson learnt. You'll have to take it on the chin, and pay again to have the installation properly inspected and tested.

Is it really such a great stretch to have an NICEIC approved contractor to inspect the job (boards are still liftable) and sign it off ? If so why

Yes, because they're not allowed to sign off other peoples work as their own.

phatboy · 12 Oct 2014

Maybe the guy saw that you had done it all yourself without the proper notifications, so didn't think you would care and just wanted the bit of paper to say you had done it right?

JohnW2 · 12 Oct 2014

HawkEye244 said:
What really concerns me is if he hasn't actually bothered to test and just written numbers down then it's not confirmation the system is safe either. I want piece of mine he's actually done what I paid him to do.

Quite so. That's why I suggested that, for your piece of mind, you might want to get a proper EICR undertaken, by a proper electrician.

HawkEye244 said:
I can't very well phone him and say I think you're a cowboy can I, and to have it tested or inspected again is going to cost me, by which point I may as well have paid towards the cost of this 'regularisation'.

Well, you could have that conversation with him, but if he is a cowboy, I'm not sure that it would get you very far. I'm a bit confused/unsure here - was this 'electrician' a member of NICIEC or some similar? If so, I'm sure that NICIEC (or whoever) would be very interested to hear that one of their members had completed an EICR in 15 mins, and produced a 5-page report! BTW, even a proper EICR should cost you a lot less than 'regularisation'

HawkEye244 said:
Is it really such a great stretch to have an NICEIC approved contractor to inspect the job (boards are still liftable) and sign it off ? If so why

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. As has been said, there is no legal way in which anyone who didn't do the work can 'sign it off' in the sense of self-certifying it, although they could, of course, undertake a (proper) EICR for you.

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 · 12 Oct 2014

Grizzly said:
This is all very nice and everything, but I was really wanting to see where the whole `The Building Act 1984 isn't a law` debate was going to go. I`m intrigued to know why the OP doesn't think that it is.

Yes, I'd like to see that debate, too. Mind you, I've witnessed some pretty heated, largely philosophical, debates amongst lawyers as to "what is a law?", which is clearly far from a straightforward issue. Certainly in the UK (and many other countries) a lot of 'the law' is nothing to do with Statutes, and/or is subject to interpretations established by case law.

Kind Regards, John

RF Lighting · 12 Oct 2014

I don't think the electrics forum is really the place to have that debate.

AdamCH · 12 Oct 2014

I think the OP is confused on a number of things and may be mixing up specific offences and the "law".

oxforddictionaries.com defines Law as "The system of rules which a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and which it may enforce by the imposition of penalties."

Which sounds about right. The Building Regs are part of UK law in E&W - I think Scotland & NI may have their own acts?

Are there any plans to rent out the house? I'm not sure I'd want to cut corners if it could be rented.

JohnW2 · 12 Oct 2014

RF Lighting said:
I don't think the electrics forum is really the place to have that debate.

Very true, but that doesn't often stop people

Mind you, in this case, one or both of the participants in the 'debate' appear to have dried up, and/or come to an impasse, so maybe it's moot!

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 · 12 Oct 2014

AdamCH said:
I think the OP is confused on a number of things and may be mixing up specific offences and the "law".

I think the issue was more about "a law" than "the law", and I suspect, along the lines you have suggested, that the OP (rightly or wrongly) probably regards "a law" as relating to a specific offence, whereas we are (I think!) all agreed that Acts of Parliament are part of "the law".

Kind Regards, John

ericmark · 12 Oct 2014

OK lets get down to basics. The only work in England which clearly requires LABC registered is the bathroom and consumer unit.

In real terms the bathroom is like any other room and unlikely there is anything untowards there.

So you are left with the consumer unit. You could ask a scheme member electrician to remove and refit the consumer unit and then give you a compliance certificate but unlikely there is anything wrong.

You have had three electricians check each others work and really it is very remote the chance anything is wrong.

I would say either do nothing or just buy a socket tester like this

and test every socket. I would not personally be worried about a completion certificate.

Taylortwocities · 12 Oct 2014

ericmark said:
OK lets get down to basics. The only work in England which clearly requires LABC registered is the bathroom and consumer unit.

.

I am sorry Eric. Also a new circuit. We are told that the work was
"' just about a complete rewire" so we can expect that there will have been just about all new circuits and a new consumer unit.

All of these are notifiable works as required by Building Regulations.

PS, those EZ test (other makes are available) devices cannot detect an earth/neutral reversal.

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EDF asking for a dead test certificate

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