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In or out of the European union

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Fool.

I am not at all confused.

You claimed that Allied armies stationed in Germany after WW2 prevented Germany going to war with France as usual.

The Occupation of the Rhineland after WWI was one of several measures which supporters hoped would disable Germany so it would be unable to make war again. It was 100% unsuccessful. Hence it failed to prevent WW2, which was my point.
 
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Fool.

I am not at all confused.

The Occupation of the Rhineland after WWI was one of several measures which supporters hoped would disable Germany so it would be unable to make war again. It was 100% unsuccessful. Hence it failed to prevent WW2, which was my point.
If you can't keep your comments civil, then I shall be forced to report you to the moderators.
So partitioning Germany into four sectors after the second world war resulted in the third world war?. Oh silly me, WW3 hasn't happened. Thank NATO for that..

The British and US are still armies of occupation in Germany.
 
Is it right for us to send our hard earned money to the EU when the EU accounts haven't been signed off for many years..? If the EU was a business, then they would be in serious trouble
 
Is it right that the European arrest warrant allows a British citizen to be transported to another EU country to be detained based on just a name. No other evidence is required. Not all EU countries have the presumption of innocence that UK citizens enjoy in the UK
 
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John, how would the UK be worse off if the UK was to exit the EU?... We need your answers here, not what Wikipedia tells you.
 
@ John; few doubt that the occupation of the Rhineland ultimately resulted in WW2, but that's not the issue. It's what happened after WW2 that matters now.

The situation in Europe after 1945 was completely different to that post-1918. NATO, BAOR, Cold War, Russian invasion of Hungary, Czeck. etc

Moreover, since de-Nazification, the Germans seem to have wanted to become the nice-guys of Europe, and may have gone a bit too far the other way, eg inviting the world and his wife into Europe. None of this is anything to do with France trying to keep Germany as close as possible.
 
You haven't got to be young to have ideals.

Have you got to be old to be sour, embittered and opposed to international co-operation?

How many Trumps do we have in the electorate, who dislike people who are foreign, or have a different language, culture or religion?

That is a grossly unfair misrepresentation of the out argument and downright offensive. Not wanting to be part of the European Union says nothing about one's attitude to foreign peoples. And it says nothing abot ones desire for international cooperation. How dare you call someone a racist, and how dare you call someone sour, embittered and opposed to international cooperation simply for wanting to leave the EU. :mad:

Back to reasoned discussion which you could perhaps engage in rather than slurs?

Some think that our interests are best served by political and economic independence rather than being ruled by a European 'parliament'. The young are idealists, they tend to see a marvelous paradise within reach, whilst ignoring the details. They are charmed by idealistic dreams (Communism for example). Age means that one tends to become more realistic, more pragmatic, seeing through the hyperbole and spin. The problem with the EU is that is undemocratic and bureaucratic. The senior people are appointed not elected, and tend to get the job because of jobs for the boys. EU members of parliament are elected by PR, so if your local one is incompetent, you cannot not vote for him, unless you decide not to vote for your party, since it is a list, not a one vote one candidate. The EU is not held to account. Who knows what they do? The truth is that there is a lot of horse trading on a large scale: "You give us X, we'll agree to Y". If we negotiate directly, we can veto anything that is seriously bad for us, rather than having to take it because it is to the benefit of our neighbours. The Transatlantic Trade deal going through could be seriously damaging to the UK and other European countries. It is conducted in secret, and may end up with the US being able to take us to court if we do not import their food even though it violates our standards e.g. use of growth hormones. This is a deal for big industry, big corporations. They tried to ban the sale of seeds and plants that had not been approved, which would have driven small growers out of business due to the cost of approval. A massive protest sorted that one out. It is all a bit redolent of the butter mountain and other calumnies.
 
The strengths of Europe do not lie in the EU but in the wonderful diversity of culture and creativity that come from nation states that trade together freely without hindrance of the nanny superstate..

I agree with you. Oh dear, I seem to have come over all faint, I think I'll have a lie down ...
 
You're incapable of making a comment about anything without making a derogatory, racist remark about other nationalities.

In this case I think you are being unfair. It is a widely held perception. See below.

Granted it could be argued that the Greeks are lazy and feckless but that is the way that they live their lives,

Greeks work pretty hard. Unfortunately they often fiddled their taxes, and many retired early on generous pensions. That was the cause of their problems, rather than being lazy and feckless.

The EU knew that Greece had cooked their books to join the EU and didn't care

That is an important point, the EU bureacrats should have known but they pushed through Greek membership, for reasons that we can but speculate on. It was irresponsible, and the Greeks deserve some sympathy.
 
France and Germany habitually go to war once in every generation. As was intended, they have not had one since they started formal co-operation. Europe was littered with military alliances and commitments before all the earlier wars. They didn't work.

NATO was designed to combat the Soviet Union, and has now been wound down. We may need to rebuild something now that Mr Putin is recreating a Russian Empire.

France and Germany can stay in the EU, they need not follow us if we leave. As for Nato, we can spend more on it if need be, which does seem to be the case.
 
2. In the event of a 'leave' vote, the following will take place;
Assuming that the government even allows a referendum in the first place, what's the betting that a "leave" vote would be followed by referendum after referendum, with increasing amounts of money being spent on pro-EU propaganda each time, until the British public gives the "correct" answer? Then, of course, they would say that "the people have spoken" and there's no need for any further debate about membership of the EU.

But if they ever did come to their senses and decide to withdraw:
(a) there will have to be lengthy negotiations on leaving arrangements;

I fear that would be the result, even though as far as U.K. law is concerned it's very simple - Repeal the relevant acts and the U.K. is out, whether the EU likes it or not, so from that point of view there's nothing to negotiate.

But that in itself raises worrying issues about the way the EU "bigwigs" believe this "club" should be. I didn't follow all the ramblings much during my last couple of years in England, nor now that I'm in the U.S., but certainly a few years ago the EU bureaucrats were talking about establishing rules for if a member country did ever want to leave.

Their ideas were that the country concerned would have to wait for some period (I forget how long, a few years), and during that time would still be obliged to abide by all EU Directives, pay into the EU, but have no say in EU matters and receive no benefits. Bad enough? Yes, but they wanted it established that even to get to that stage the country concerned would be "permitted" to leave only if every other member country agreed first.

That shows a total disregard for the sovereignty of individual nations and is a worrying indication of their true motives and aims. If they ever did agree upon such rules, just what exactly would they do if the U.K. - as it has every right to do under U.K. law - just said "We're out" and refused to go along with their rules?

Unfortunately, the way the EU seems to be headed, in a few more decades I can see it turning into the same sort of struggle as happened with the break-up of the old Soviet Union, hence my earlier comment about the U.K. withdrawing while it can still be done peaceably. In another 20 years or so, the only way out might be by force.
 
The strengths of Europe do not lie in the EU but in the wonderful diversity of culture and creativity that come from nation states that trade together freely without hindrance of the nanny superstate..

I agree with you. Oh dear, I seem to have come over all faint, I think I'll have a lie down ...
Have a stiff drink dear boy, I'm sure that the feeling will pass..
 
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